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U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#191

Post by tps5 »

scott_s wrote: post #176
rcarrigan87 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if scam is the right word. Everyone is capable of deluding themselves into believing their current, morally questionable actions will be seen as justified in the future (when everything works, out of course). I'm sure even Bernie Madoff believed at some point he would win it all back and no one would ever know or be harmed.

I don't agree with your characterization of Bernie Madoff. He knew he was running a scam. He was clearly lying in his marketing materials, saying his fund performed certain trades that they never did. (See Harry Markopolos' book, "No One Would Listen"; that's how Markopolos figured out it was a scam.) I think Madoff is, at the least, a borderline sociopath. (If not an outright one.) A sociopath may think they can get…

I never paid much attention to the details of the Madoff case but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely.

Not much is gained from that label, in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#193

Post by nnain »

rcarrigan87 wrote: post #159
bane wrote: post #142

I hope that Holmes' bizarre behavior as the issues went public keep her from ever running anything even remotely close to things that matter for people's lives and well being. Even as the questions were building and the noose was tightening, she would announce a public talk to reveal and openly share information on the company's tech, then mysteriously cancel a short while later -- she did this over and over. I'm sti…

Not sure if scam is the right word. Everyone is capable of deluding themselves into believing their current, morally questionable actions will be seen as justified in the future (when everything works, out of course). I'm sure even Bernie Madoff believed at some point he would win it all back and no one would ever know or be harmed.

That's a very convenient excuse: "I thought I was right". Doesn't make a scam any less so.

My bigger grudge with Theranos' founder and the likes is their hoax seriously hurts the startup industry culture. Some people get really confused, some start following in these footsteps, some even lose direction with so much mis-information flying around. The chest thumping hotshots suck up too much energy and resources from the ecosystem.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#194

Post by scott_s »

tps5 wrote: post #191
scott_s wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your characterization of Bernie Madoff. He knew he was running a scam. He was clearly lying in his marketing materials, saying his fund performed certain trades that they never did. (See Harry Markopolos' book, "No One Would Listen"; that's how Markopolos figured out it was a scam.) I think Madoff is, at the least, a borderline sociopath. (If not an outright one.) A sociopath may think they can get…

I never paid much attention to the details of the Madoff case but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not much is gained from that label, in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

I use the word because, based on his actions, I think he does not have empathy for other people. He knowingly defrauded thousands of people, often depleting all of their savings. The scale of his fraud, and the length of time he perpetuated it, is staggering.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#195

Post by gnaritas »

tps5 wrote: post #191
scott_s wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your characterization of Bernie Madoff. He knew he was running a scam. He was clearly lying in his marketing materials, saying his fund performed certain trades that they never did. (See Harry Markopolos' book, "No One Would Listen"; that's how Markopolos figured out it was a scam.) I think Madoff is, at the least, a borderline sociopath. (If not an outright one.) A sociopath may think they can get…

I never paid much attention to the details of the Madoff case but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not much is gained from that label, in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

> but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely.

Not an argument.

> And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

Not an argument.

If you're going to disagree with someone, generally, some logic as to why is useful, not just "I don't agree". Madoff certainly deserves that label, he ruined lives by running the biggest investment scam in history: he clearly didn't in any way care about what happened to those other people, completely lacking in empathy, they were used and discarded.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#196

Post by w1ntermute »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #187

The article mentions that the company's current governance structure may prevent the board from terminating Holmes. Does that mean she is the majority shareholder?

She is a majority shareholder, but also her shares are of a class that gives her 100 votes/share.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#197

Post by gmarx »

rcarrigan87 wrote: post #159
bane wrote: post #142

I hope that Holmes' bizarre behavior as the issues went public keep her from ever running anything even remotely close to things that matter for people's lives and well being. Even as the questions were building and the noose was tightening, she would announce a public talk to reveal and openly share information on the company's tech, then mysteriously cancel a short while later -- she did this over and over. I'm sti…

Not sure if scam is the right word. Everyone is capable of deluding themselves into believing their current, morally questionable actions will be seen as justified in the future (when everything works, out of course). I'm sure even Bernie Madoff believed at some point he would win it all back and no one would ever know or be harmed.

Isn't this just a combination of generally admired startup behavior (fake it til you make it) combined with a business on which people's health might depend? When I read that they were using regular lab test machines to perform the majority of tests, it struck me as pretty much what my YC friends reported as received wisdom- that it's legit to start out doing it "by hand" before you get your tech working.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#198

Post by gmarx »

jcranmer wrote: post #172
ryporter wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What law of physics makes what Theranos attempted to achieve impossible? They were still drawing blood from the patient. Thus, it seems theoretically possible for technology to overcome the challenges the approach presents.

Quoting from a comment on one of Derek Lowe's posts on the subject ( http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2015/10/15/the... ) (note that a large fraction of commenters are active chemistry, medical, or biology researchers): > The blood you get from a prick will be a mixture of blood from small venules, small arterioles, capillaries and lymph vessels, mixed with whatever loose tissue and cells have been cut b…

You underestimate the magic of machine learning! :0...kidding. Sort of. I suspect they thought there was a software solution to this problem (and for all I know there might be)

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#199

Post by dingbat »

bane wrote: post #142

I hope that Holmes' bizarre behavior as the issues went public keep her from ever running anything even remotely close to things that matter for people's lives and well being. Even as the questions were building and the noose was tightening, she would announce a public talk to reveal and openly share information on the company's tech, then mysteriously cancel a short while later -- she did this over and over. I'm sti…

> Real kudos to the press who broke and made very public the stories. This was the media at its finest.

On the other hand, most of the press was more than happy to play along with this charade. Those in the media who ran with lazy profiles enabling this fraud should be remembered.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#200

Post by keymone »

ceejayoz wrote: post #169
keymone wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people swerve all the time because coffee and phones falling out of their hands, because their "cpu" is bug-ridden and decides to show them fiction instead of reality at will. so the connotation that goes with the phrase "playing with people's lives" is completely dishonest when faced with the fact that statistically autopilot is safer than human.

> statistically autopilot is safer than human This is not born out by the currently available facts. Tesla quoted deaths-per-autopilot-mile versus overall deaths-per-mile for all cars on the road. This is very misleading information, for a number of reasons. 1. Teslas are high-end luxury cars and thus have better safety features than the lower end of the market. 2. Teslas are likely to be newer and better maintained…

1 and 2 are irrelevant. tesla is a product, it's safety features, autopilot and build quality are part of that product. this product delivers certain deaths-per-mile characteristic. this characteristic in it's direct form can be compared to national average or to any other product.

3 this is valid point, but it's significance is diminishing as autopilot is accumulating death-free miles. also does tesla not deal with icy/snowy conditions in Norway?

4 is pure speculation.

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