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NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

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Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#131

Post by marvindanig »

blackoil wrote: post #114
marvindanig wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't the Indian government speak to Tesla Motors/Solar City? They can help you zero down on traffic/power generation related pollution completely. Indian engineers are smart people and given that much of EV technology is now proven and even open source!, I think it will make sense for the people there to adopt alternative tech. Have you tried talking to Tesla to open up R&D center with Tatas/Mahindras/whoever?…

Cost, most cars sold in India are less then 8000 USD. Tesla won't make any sent here. Solar is now coming up motivated by poor infrastructure, particularly in remote/rural areas

Oh that's a lot of money! New Delhi should explore this idea then!

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#132

Post by kartD »

jdietrich wrote: post #125
kartD wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any references on this? I think most engines are Indian manufactured and India uses emission norms based on European regulation [0] Would be interested to see any data. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Stage_emission_standard...

The regulations are almost meaningless because of corruption. A majority of drivers in India never took a test - they simply bribed an official to receive a license. Only a fool would pay the Rs 20,000 fee for a commercial vehicle roadworthiness test when the certificate can simply be bought for Rs 1,500. It's easier and cheaper to pay bribes than to work through the official bureaucracy. http://faculty.chicagobooth.…

Thanks!

While I agree on the point of vehicles made pre norms, but vehicle manufactured after their adoption are all mostly going to be compliant (although with the VW scam, I'm sure there are going to be significant doubts about whether the vehicles stay that way).

Can't argue on the emission check though, that I definitely believe. One can only hope newer vehicles don't have significant degradation in emissions over time.

I guess the main takeaway is that the Indian government has to enforce the rules more than anything.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#133

Post by mikeash »

oldmanjay wrote: post #118
ptaipale wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the US put all that effort into cleaning up the air in China? 1) For altruistic reasons: help people who suffer. 2) For selfish reasons: block from markets industrial competitors who are gaining an advantage by applying much poorer environmental norms and therefore take market share.

For additional selfish reasons: there's only one atmosphere. ruining it anywhere ruins it everywhere i'm sort of surprised that would need to be pointed out, though

Bad air quality in China has very little effect on air quality here, so that's not really true.

It is true for CO2, but it's not true for many other pollutants.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#134

Post by sremani »

rahulsidhu wrote: post #130
sremani wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Most Indian power generation is Coal, there are hydel, and Nuclear is stuck in Gen2 (thanks to sanctions due to Nuke testing - the current Gen is 5) 2. There is scarcity of Coal, and Coal that is mined in India is high-soot 3. The demand for electricity outstrips Supply. 4. The supply never caught up with the demand because Transmission lines are owned by Government(state-level) and there is rampant theft 5. Becau…

I am afraid this picture is far from accurate. Power plants on the whole are running at a very low PLF for some time. Very cheap power is available in the short term markets[1]. The transmission system has also improved in the last two years and now prices are more or less uniform across the country[1]. Last mile distribution infrastructure is still a WIP in many places but the real problem is financial. Many distrib…

#2 may be outdated. #3 can be debated, but there were brown-outs and black-outs during the summer.

Things have improved, but the pace is not something to write home about.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#135

Post by Nano2rad »

kamaal wrote: post #79
chdir wrote: post #60

A related story : There's a mega mall in Chandigarh, India that wasn't given approval for a power connection for quite some time (politics / corruption). Real estate is super expensive & the owners couldn't afford to sit idle and play games with the government so they decided to run the mall from morning till night on diesel generators. That's ~ $4500 of diesel each day, probably 6-8k litres. This is an example of a…

Why would anyone protest? India doesn't have enough electricity to waste on Malls and Movies theaters. Or big offices like tech parks in Bangalore! What you have mentioned applies to every tech park in Bangalore, so should people now protest against their very source of employment?

India has only 2% electricity shortage.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#136

Post by cmrdporcupine »

Noseshine wrote: post #107
rapind wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could probably do the same in Canada fwiw.

Is it really uninhabitable? The territories in the north maybe too harsh, but with global warming helping too I think the southern half is quite alright, which is huge. It's all forest, lots of lakes, no lack of water and not too high, and no desert.

It's no more uninhabitable than the uninhabitable areas of China. But it is non-arable.

Most of the eastern half of Canada north of a certain is "Canadian shield" and is granite shield rock with little if any topsoil.

The other half is boreal forest and some of it is indeed farmed to a fairly high latittude (central Alberta where I'm from) but once you get up high enough the growing degree days are not sufficient to grow a lot of crops. It's good for grazing if that. And also fairly arid in spots.

And the rest is mountains, or arctic.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#137

Post by geodel »

stickfigure wrote: post #80
kamaal wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone protest? India doesn't have enough electricity to waste on Malls and Movies theaters. Or big offices like tech parks in Bangalore! What you have mentioned applies to every tech park in Bangalore, so should people now protest against their very source of employment?

India doesn't have enough electricity There's something fundamentally broken about this statement, which suggests a deeper problem - why isn't the market for electricity working in India?

Electricity is unaffordable to vast mass of people without heavy subsidy. It is same with every infrastructure sector. One can say well phones are available and affordable to 1.1 billion Indian people. However ARPU for telecom companies is less than $2/month which might be one of the lowest in the world. Most companies are in heavy debt with not much to upgrade infrastructure as a result user count is getting very high but quality of network is getting lower.

Any infrastructure sector which requires heavy investment to produce but once there can be used by anyone will remain in bad shape. That is why India has many world class hospitals, 5-star hotels etc because they can be made exclusively available to those who can afford. While roads, piped water supply, sewage systems, public transport, education remain in terrible shape.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#138

Post by Nano2rad »

jdietrich wrote: post #49
kartD wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't think so, India is typically 4 stroke because of pollution norms and 4 strokes are more fuel efficient which we're very sensitive to. Frankly, India's problem can only be fixed by population control. If Sanjay Gandhi hadn't been an idiot and forever poisoned the idea of population control, India would be much better off, especially if we can get the population to around 300M - 500M

There are still a lot of older two-stroke engines in use. Four-stroke engines from local and Chinese manufacturers are typically crude air-cooled carbureted designs with very high emissions. A modern European motorcycle might produce 20x lower emissions than a typical Indian bike thanks to much stricter regulations.

All bikes and scooters manufactured in India are 4 stroke,that is so for a decade. Only exception is TVS50, it has some exemption.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#140

Post by Thrymr »

Nano2rad wrote: post #139

The NASA data shows particulate matter. The real pollutants are CO2 and other invisible gases. Why concentrate on the visible particulate matter? The real concern is 400 ppm CO2 in air.

The effects due to particulates are local and short term. The effects due to CO2 are global and long term. 400 ppm CO2 is indeed a real concern, but it does not follow that locally high levels of toxic particulates are not a real concern.
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