Jeff Atwood's "On Parenthood" is by far the best and most honest piece I've ever read on what being a parent is like.
Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
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Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#62I'm curious to see how they surveyed for "happiness". As a parent the initial years are rough just providing care. In the thick of it if someone comes and asks, "are you happy?", the answer is irrelevant (I understand that the question won't be as direct, but the outcome will be similar). IMHO the best question is, "if you could go back in time would you still decide to have children?".
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#63They could have just posted the bar chart and called it a day. Why is it that when there is so little money out there for real research, there always seems to be plenty floating around for BS like this?
It keeps sociologists off the streets, where they could get into _real_ trouble.
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#64As a father, I still cant believe how someone might be happier without children, or kids have not made him happier... it is a most fulfilling thing to have a relationship with ones own kid. I also do not personally know anyone who said kids didnt make him happier. I am from Europe, not USA, but it is unlikely people are that different there.
It may make you happier, but at what cost? Having children is a monumentally massive physical, emotional, financial, and psychological investment. What if there's a problem in the womb and they're born with a physical defect? What if there's a problem at birth and my spouse is now physically scarred for life? What if I get divorced and my wife now legally fucks me out of everything I own, and grooms the children to despise me (something that has become so common in family court that there's a term for it: parental alienation syndrome)? What if a couple years down the road they turn out to be highly autistic? What if they get hit by a bus in their 16th year? What if they turn into a drug addict when they're 19 and never speak to me again?
The "what ifs" can go on forever. At some point one has to rationalize whether or not all of this is worth it, to invest so much of oneself into another human being without first considering themselves.
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#65I found several problems with the article, and the conclusions of the study. Basic science says correlation != causation, but the study clearly set out with a specific bias in mind.
Case in point, this quote:
“We know that these problems have been endemic for decades now, and we’ve watched the maternal employment rate in the U.S. steadily erode relative to other countries.”
A higher maternal employment rate is now a yardstick for societal health? If that's not evidence of a clear bias on the part of the researchers I don't know what is. The personal fulfillment and societal value of working moms vs stay-at-home moms is a matter that can be debated, but to display such clear bias toward the latter as the 'correct' option makes one question all of the study's conclusions.
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#66You might not want to take parental advice from a fat bastard who sits and plays with his keyboard all day on a computer.
Try a grown-up instead. By which I mean, someone who has chosen to develop emotional intelligence.
Yes I can see the irony in what I'm saying. Thanks.
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Societal Pressure on Women is immense. Societal Pressure on Women in the work place is immense. Societal Pressure on Mothers is also immense. They combine to make it exceptionally tough on Women. But mad props to those who have persevered despite that pressure--like my Mom and many other mothers out there. > IME, the dads I know who stay home get more of an "awesome bro!" If you are independently wealthy, sure. Other…
> If you are independently wealthy, sure. Otherwise, IME, you are considered a failure for not being able to provide for your family. Even then I'd say that many men would face thinly veiled criticism or even ridicule behind their backs.
That's a problem with our culture, then, because early retirement (in the sense that you work on whatever you want irrespective of money and spend more time with your children) can be much more fulfilling than the vast majority of office jobs. Financial independence should be a goal of everyone's.
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#68My friends with children after they've had a few drinks have all told my wife and I to not have children. I know this is a small selection of college educated people with comfortable lifestyles, but when every single person I know discloses to me when they're in a truthful state that we're better off not having kids..it makes you think.
For me, having kids is the most fulfilling thing happening in my life. Honestly, that advice is terrible.
When people say kids are the most fulfilling thing in their life, is it because they are didn't have anything really fulfilling in their life before that?
I get fulfillment for my job some of the time - though its not the be all and end all in my life and it pissed me off sometimes too. I get a lot more from whitewater kayaking and mountain biking and generally being outdoors in my spare time. Some of my friends have had kids, and most have given up or seriously cut down on the amount that they devote to the sports they loved.
Did you have something that gave you a lot of fulfillment before you had kids?
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#69I'd really like to see a study specific to female happiness with children. I live in the US, and I think men and women's experience with children is entirely different. When my wife worked, she missed our kids tremendously. Almost 75% of her take home went to day care. She was pretty miserable. Now she stays home. She gets a lot of off-hand comments from other friends with kids about "how bored they would be if they…
No data to back up my feeling that most of the pressure stay at home women get is from other women. My wife stays at home and we buck any negative comment together to keep those feelings at bay. We show we are proud of it, not ashamed by it and we aren't willing to let anyone else belittle our choices. Any negative comment, any off-hand comment needs to be squashed immediately. Same thing happens with self-esteem iss…
It seems there's no "bright" side. There are some stay-at-home moms in my wife's family and they were... defensive... when my wife went back to work.
So either way, you find a way to be resentful or ashamed.
Go back to work and miss your child's first steps/words/laughs. Go back to work and someone else raises your children. Someone else uses your child to teach their child how to be a leader. Someone else (accidentally) gets called "mom".
Stay at home and barely manage to tread water financially compared to your dual-income friends. Stay at home and watch your career disappear (unless you chose one of those "never need to skill up" careers that're considered "safe" for women, like teaching). Stay at home and prepare for a lifetime of resentment about men being further ahead than you career-wise. Stay at home and propagate stereotypes.
I guess though, in the end, there's no doubt that someone that chose their career will regret it at some point in their lives, where you might be able to escape without regret having chosen to stay home.
Re: Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier
#70I think the stress and financial cost that having children in the US creates are much larger than in other western countries. I currently don't have children and would not think of moving back to my home country Germany. However, if I had children I would be back in Germany in no time. The entire education system is on average more reliably good and much cheaper.