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We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#361

Post by scotty79 »

mpweiher wrote: post #328
dragonwriter wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it insufficient to answer the question of whether sexism is the problem. Computer programming used to have a lot more women -- why did that change? If it was changing interest, what is the source of the gender imbalance in the change in interest? Certainly, the perception that there was gender bias in the field arose while the rate at which women were participatin…

Oh, that's fairly easy to answer: the field changed to be more like other engineering fields, and lo-and-behold, the percentage of women in the field gradually approached what it had always been in engineering. The graph[1] that is usually shown is highly misleading, because it compares CS with "physical sciences", and law, but does not include engineering. If you add engineering, it all makes a bit more sense[2]. Al…

> the field changed to be more like other engineering fields

How so? I feel exactly opposite is true. I'm successful developer with over 10 years of commercial exp with masters degree from technical university and in wildest dreams I wouldn't call myself engineer without laughing even though I have it written among other things on my diploma. I feel more like artist, craftsman or repirman.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#362

Post by scotty79 »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #317
tropo wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. We got rid of the gender bias. Very long ago, computer programming was seen as being like typing and/or secretarial work. It was seen as being unmanly. Compare with nursing and kindergarten teaching. A woman might get assigned to invent COBOL instead of being in charge of an aircraft carrier. Well, we got rid of the sexism. Happy now? Hmmm, guess not.

Your comment amused me a bit, so I wanted to write something in response. I work in metal fabrication, our workshop specialises in structural steel, so we are part of the general construction industry. We call ourselves 'boilermakers', though I've never worked on a boiler. Anyway, in the 17 years I've been doing this on and off, I have met precisely 1 female boilermaker. And nobody cares. What I don't follow is why i…

I think it's mostly because if half of 'boiler makers' would start doing something else not many would care, but if half of the programmers would go work in nail saloons instead we'd be in much trouble.

Software is eating the world, there's so much work to do, and a thought that anyone that could be a programmer isn't for some silly reason, is very unpleasent.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#364

Post by nikdaheratik »

killface wrote: post #222
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert, but isn't "let's just hire only women for a while to balance out the numbers" going to violate a whole bunch of employment regulations?

No. If you're a white male, that's bad. Anything else is diversity. They'll come up with some bullshit like "since women aren't the majority of hiring managers, this doesn't count as discrimination" or something. Like they have with racism (where black people in America literally can't be racist).

Of course, the corollary to what you're saying is: "If you're a white male and you get hired, that's on merit, everyone else is hired for diversity reasons."

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#365

Post by nikdaheratik »

randyrand wrote: post #209

Someone off-topic but: Laws forbidding sexual and racial discrimination in hiring are a waste for everyone's time involved. Do I really want to work alongside someone that "isn't racist" or sexist just because the law forbids it? No of course not. I'd rather work next to people that aren't racist and sexists regardless of if the law forbids it. I want to work at companies where people actually want me. How difficult…

I think you need to look at the history behind those laws before you can make that claim. More to the point, the penalty for discrimination makes it less likely that a company will keep someone who is prejudiced in a position where they hire people, as they're out big bucks if they get hit up with a law suit.

You are correct that this may not do anything to change a racist culture, which is why many minorities leave certain companies after being hired, but if no one affected by a toxic culture ever gets hired, there's a very small chance that it will change on its own. And there's also the case you left out where the company itself isn't that toxic, but they left a racist in charge of the hiring and didn't realize it. This helps correct for that as well by discouraging having that kind of person in charge of hiring.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#366

Post by infinite8s »

vegabook wrote: post #81

So the point here, hopefully, is to allow truly talented female coders to overcome the bias against women generally, which exists because of the fallacy of averages. Hopefully, the idea is not to push the erroneous view that women are on average equally good at coding than men. That is objectively untrue. I can, with enthusiasm, support a technology which helps the (smaller number of) women who are genuinely good cod…

Do you have a reference or any data to support your assertion that women on average are not equally as good at coding as men?

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#367

Post by therealdrag0 »

mplewis wrote: post #270
mpweiher wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it trivially true from observation and all empirical data I can find (if you remove the absolute)

Because without data, it's a circular argument. "Women aren't interested in programming, so none of them go into programming professionally. Why don't women go into programming professionally? Because they aren't interested." Separate out whether women are interested from whether women are being forced out for other reasons (harassment, gender imbalance in the field, etc).

Why are there less male elementary school teachers? Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested?

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#368

Post by dragonwriter »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #367
mplewis wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without data, it's a circular argument. "Women aren't interested in programming, so none of them go into programming professionally. Why don't women go into programming professionally? Because they aren't interested." Separate out whether women are interested from whether women are being forced out for other reasons (harassment, gender imbalance in the field, etc).

Why are there less male elementary school teachers? Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested?

> Are they being forced out due to gender prejudice or are they not interested?

Positive (for males) gender prejudice in a wide array of higher-status, better-compensated jobs drawing men disproportionately elsewhere. Which is kind of a mix of both of your options.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#369

Post by cauterized »

d0lph wrote: post #342
cauterized wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Directly, perhaps. What if the women were doing non-billable work that enabled their colleagues to bill more combined total hours than they would have had she done billable work instead?

Are you referring to something, or just asking "what if"?

I'm challenging the parent's assumption that an individual's billable hours are an accurate representation of that person's contribution to a firm's top line, let alone bottom line.
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