Earlier quoted context omitted.
I actually don't think you should put the question on the interview feedback form. That invites bias into the question. "Oh, this candidate did well, must be a man." In fact, having interviewers consciously guess at the gender may even skew their perception of the interview performance post-hoc. I would, however, be interested in a separate experiment to gauge the effectiveness of the voice modulation.
Ask after the normal survey is complete and submitted.
We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
321–330 of 369 posts
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vocal fry is more commonly noticed and criticized in women but I haven't gotten the impression that there's definitive evidence that women do it more than men since most of the studies have been pretty small or localized. Mark Liberman has been covering this for years over at Language Log and there appears to be a great deal of ongoing debate within the academic community: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/index.p…
How can a gendered speech "fashion" (which is what it seems like to me) be criticized? I think it's hot (as a guy)... probably because it's so sex-typed
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3626 covers the claims that this is some new trend, many of which are couched in language which implies that kids these days are doing something wrong or degenerate.
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=12774 discusses media coverage a couple of years ago claiming that women's careers (or vocal cords) would be damaged by using vocal fry.
This American Life did an entire episode (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/545/i... – http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=17489 has discussion) about the volume and vehemence of the complaints they receive about female cast members' use of vocal fry:
> Listeners have always complained about young women reporting on our show. They used to complain about reporters using the word like and about upspeak, which is when you put a question mark at the end of a sentence and talk like this. But we don't get many emails like that anymore. People who don't like listening to young women on the radio have moved on to vocal fry.
> What's striking in the dozens of emails about vocal fry that we've gotten here at our radio show is how vehement people are. These are some of the angriest emails we ever get. They call these women's voices unbearable, excruciating, annoyingly adolescent, beyond annoying, difficult to pay attention, so severe as to cause discomfort, can't stand the pain, distractingly disgusting, could not get over how annoyed I was, I am so appalled, detracts from the credibility of the journalist, degrades the value of the reportage, it's a choice, very unprofessional.
The part which underscores that there's a strong gender-based component to criticism is that Ira Glass, the male host of This American Life, is basically the king of vocal fry (along with other long-time radio personalities like Carl Kassel or Walter Cronkite) but nobody complains about his usage and on the rare occasions when any mention is made, it's not expressed in the same kind of negative language:
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> "(perceiving a "standard trolling technique" === "preconception")" You claimed preconception about the topic . Perceiving trolling is a preconception about your rhetorical technique . Don't overlook that important nuance. >> [SNIP -- attempts to justify] I don't care whether you are or aren't justified in rejecting the data (I have no dog in this fight.) I'm simply noting that you seem to give off the impression t…
I claimed preconception about a topic. I do not know which; I only assume that a downmodder had something in mind. I suppose it's possible they are completely random downmods from wandering bots. > I'm simply noting that you seem to give off the impression that you're not genuinely interested, or open to being persuaded. You're not the first person to conflate me writing and giving attention to something as being "no…
There is a classic trolling technique, which I have heard called a "snow job" but probably has other names, wherein someone tries to basically overwhelm a topic of discussion with minutia in order to get people to waste their time while not actually making any progress in the discussion.
Relatedly, a common technique among people who are dogmatic about a position is to build an impenetrable wall (built out of unreasonable standards of proof, and nitpicking criticism) and then spend a lot of time arguing about how their wall hasn't been penetrated. In essence it becomes a way of inflating the ego -- "we argued for hours and the other guy never even put a dent in my position! That's because I'm so smart!"
Again, not saying this is what you're actually doing, just noting that it's easy to get that perception from reading along.
> "I don't think the perceptions you describe as others perhaps having accurately characterize me, though."
Perhaps they don't. But the first comment I made in this subthread has a score of +10 right now (an unusually high score for a meta-comment of this sort, particularly this deeply nested), which indicates that quite a few people share the perception.
> "I am not attempting to create a particular perception; I'm only trying to have an on-topic discussion"
Whenever you speak or write, you create a perception. Whether intentional or unintentional, it affects your ability to have an on-topic discussion. My hope is that you'll be able to take what I've written here and learn how to reshape that perception, in order to more effectively communicate your interest in an on-topic discussion.
One final thought: the comment "no real evidence", likewise, contributes to the perception. What has been shown might be weak evidence, but it's not nothing. In a Bayesian sense, if you started with a neutral perception ("I do not know if there is a significant difference") what has been presented would be suggestive that a difference might exist, but not strong enough to show that a difference definitely exists. The proper response would be "this seems like an area where better data could be gathered" rather than "no real evidence has been shown".
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can a gendered speech "fashion" (which is what it seems like to me) be criticized? I think it's hot (as a guy)... probably because it's so sex-typed
It's usually mentioned in a negative context as something young women recently started doing and should stop. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3626 covers the claims that this is some new trend, many of which are couched in language which implies that kids these days are doing something wrong or degenerate. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=12774 discusses media coverage a couple of years ago claiming th…
I'm assuming that all of the complainers knew the name of it and of its existence to begin with. I wonder if there's a negative preferential reaction there.
Like many things, this is a taste, and the same taste can seem delicious to one person and disgusting to another. I know someone who can't stand chocolate...
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you think egalitarianism is a bad idea because your hunch is that existing prejudices are totally justified, and should not be challenged -- it's a waste of time!
I think the point is that you can't assume that in some ideal world where everyone is working harmoniously and fairly, that the ratio will definitely become 50/50. Why don't we have similar outrage over the fact that most teachers and nurses are women? Why is STEM and IT in particular receiving all this attention? There are already more women than men attending college, the consequences of that alone will push the ne…
Any field that appears lucrative and is not represented by 50% woman becomes a target for 3rd wave feminists to pull the gender card. It's quite obvious to anyone paying attention - there is not a peep from this group when it's pointed out that there are all sorts of professions with variations in gender ratios.
Not a word is mentioned when it's stated that the most dangerous and often least desirable jobs are nearly 100% men. No issue when the vast majority of job losses in 2008 were in industries typically worked by men. And when woman have the upper hand in professions, especially those funded publicly (teachers, bureaucrats, administers, etc.), it's not something to be discussed. It looks like women under 30 now actually make more than men in the exact same jobs.
If and when the CS field is finally gutted enough by continuing offshoring, H1b body shops, and the next bubble collapse, and wages get pulled back down towards the median, it will be interesting to watch all concern for this 'issue' evaporate as the movement sets its sights on the next hot industry that doesn't have a woman majority. See the legal profession for a good example.
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is just as hard, or harder, for men who are not confident to just say 'well, be more confident', so again, not a gendered issue.
But women are more frowned upon for being confident than men. Again, see this study regarding women vs men asking for raises: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
For example they ask college students to imagine they are bank HR managers and whether they would hire a candidate that asked for more money. From that they conclude that a bias exists in the real world. However, all they have shown is that college students expect such a bias to exist in the real world.
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#327This is ridiculous. At some point we need to face up to the reality that most women in the US are just not interested in working in technology. There is no evil conspiracy to keep women out of tech. Maybe high school guidance counselors and parents don't encourage women to go into tech. Maybe there is someone to blame, but it's not the tech industry's fault.
Let's assume for a moment that this is true. I'm not sure it is, but we'll go with it.
Software companies don't hire women who aren't interested in technology because those women don't apply for the job. The aim of ideas like the one in the article is to make the hiring process fairer by removing a gender bias from the pool of candidates who do apply. That's all. It doesn't imply that the candidate pool will change.
The point is that every equally qualified candidate in that pool should have the same chance of getting the job. Better candidate should have higher chances. Biases skew that probability downwards, so we should aim to remove them. Otherwise we aren't hiring the best people.
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it trivially true from observation and all empirical data I can find (if you remove the absolute)
> Why do you find that 'argument' hard to buy? I find it insufficient to answer the question of whether sexism is the problem. Computer programming used to have a lot more women -- why did that change? If it was changing interest, what is the source of the gender imbalance in the change in interest? Certainly, the perception that there was gender bias in the field arose while the rate at which women were participatin…
The graph[1] that is usually shown is highly misleading, because it compares CS with "physical sciences", and law, but does not include engineering. If you add engineering, it all makes a bit more sense[2].
Also, you seem to be approaching this from the angle of "can we prove that it isn't sexism" (which is the common approach). It seems that the correct approach is for those who claim that it is sexism to make the case, which after looking at the evidence I think they absolutely have not. (I used to think it was, but that was because I bought the narrative without looking at the evidence).
And the narrative is strong. For example, the link to the percentage of women decreasing with the discipline becoming more engineering like is known. However, the explanation then shifts to "the men in CS got together and decided to make the discipline more engineering-like expressly in order to keep the women out". Seriously??
[1] https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/10/21/womencoding_wide...
[2] https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/7/005/06b/02d/33fe648.jpg
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is the outsized unpaid work? Any studies and do the studies account for different cohorts by age range?
We already know there is a disparity in the amount of housekeeping between men and women, even in couples where both men and women are working.
Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
The study you linked doesn't absolutely say what you are trying to make it say (that there aren't fundamental differences in psychology between men and women). It seems to say that male and female brains and cognitive abilities aren't as dimorphic as their genitalia, but instead there is a continuum and overlaps for many distinct cognitive traits. In other words: (almost) all men have normally formed penises, (almost…
>That doesn't mean that there are NO genders though. The study isn't saying that there are no genders - specifically it is saying: Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.
Nothing in this view says it's not possible that, for example, an interest or a skill for engineering, while rare in both genders, might be n times more common in men than in women.