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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#211

Post by XorNot »

naasking wrote: post #140
gerbilly wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Asking that the government liberate that money [...] does not seem like a good policy given how incompetent the government has proven itself to be when spending the money it already collects. So don't ask the government to liberate the existing holdings of the 1%, ask them to change policy to cutoff the supply. The tax code is so overwhelmingly in favour of the investing class that, if it were re-balanced, you would…

> The tax code is so overwhelmingly in favour of the investing class that, if it were re-balanced, you wouldn't have to take anyone's money to achieve a similar outcome in a decade. Except this 1% are exactly the sort that have the resources to just leave Canada if it ceases to be financially favourable. It's unfortunately not so cut and dry.

They're a lot more willing to threaten to do this, and also invite politicians to fancy dining / holiday homes / helicopter rides, then they have historically proven to be willing to actually do this.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#212

Post by sievebrain »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #192
sievebrain wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you the vast majority of UK voters didn't give a crap about the personalities involved, nor were the decisions taken for "emotive reasons" (sure are lots of people in denial trying to claim that though).

It's a funny sort on non-emotive decision that causes a massive rise in racist violence.

"Massive"? You mean a handful of cases?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#213

Post by conanbatt »

juk5 wrote: post #161
conanbatt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to make a broad connection between the lack of trust in government, I would attribute it to the aging of the democratic institution. In the last 15 years, scandals around voting have been huge in many elections, and the advance of technology is making how the politicians run look antiquated and unrepresentative. I think this is more of a general response against governments who don't have the capacity to fu…

I'd prefer power in the hands of the few. The selection of the few needs fine tuning and fixing though. The cumulative intelligence and decision making capability of the herd is great at wasting everyone's time and the worlds resources. Thanks to visionary lizard person Mark Zuckerberg, we are all connected now whether we like it or not. And the stampeding brainless herd is going to be dragging each one of us in dire…

Its impossible for a few to represent the interest of many. So the simpler the choice, the less representative it is. It should be more important to give power to the person running your city than your country, because his policies are way more likely to make an impact in your daily life. Making a oversimplifying comparison, centralization is usually against the robustness and efficiency of a system, since it adds a central point of failure. In practice, for me, it add so many layers of abstraction that the ones at the top make decisions on things very different than what the ones at the bottom care about.

Centralization was practical before, but now with technology we have an increased capacity of descentralization.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#214

Post by ionised »

marknutter wrote: post #189
RobertKerans wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say yes, given that it's such a simplistic framing of the situation - the impression given (whether intended or not) is ah, those liberals and socialists with their multicultural dreams! When will they wake up and see that it doesn't work! The response was fine

And the original post that referred to "neoliberalism" as the root of all our problems isn't being just as simplistic in their reasoning?

Neoliberalism is a phenomenon with quite well defined characteristics, so no.

'Lefties' used to dismiss another's point of view as invalid withiut actually explaining why is just baselessly tribal and antagonistic.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#215

Post by ionised »

internaut wrote: post #137
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

> Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU. > The EU made a strategic mistake here, which is that they have been partially (together with the US) responsible for the destabil…

Don't presume to speak for me.

> You have to ask yourself what a typical young European thinks of Anders Brevik. The ones I know think he was right on the money. As you probably know he wrote a manifesto which is a sort of prognosis/prediction rant. Since he disseminated that and killed the children on the island he has become very popular on the radical European right, a sort of terrorist version of Nostradamus.

> the contempt they have for the portion of the left which they see as traitorous and treasonous.

And the profound ignorance you have here of history would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

I'd recommend picking up a history book and educate yourself on what happens when far-right exremists start picking out groups of people among their own countrymen to label as 'enemies' or 'traitors'. It's a diversionary tactic meant advance an agenda of those seeking power that is almost certainly not in your interest or mine.

It was a tactic of the Nazis, of Stalin's Soviets, of the Khmer Rouge. Get a fucking grip.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#216

Post by internaut »

ionised wrote: post #215
internaut wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU. > The EU made a strategic mistake here, which is that they have been partially (together with the US) responsible for the destabil…

Don't presume to speak for me. > You have to ask yourself what a typical young European thinks of Anders Brevik. The ones I know think he was right on the money. As you probably know he wrote a manifesto which is a sort of prognosis/prediction rant. Since he disseminated that and killed the children on the island he has become very popular on the radical European right, a sort of terrorist version of Nostradamus. > t…

I'm aware history is repeating itself ionised.

The question I want the answer to is why is the left pushing all the buttons that will produce conflict. This is not a rhetorical question, it is both a statement of fact and a real question.

Let us not pretend inviting millions of foreigners to Europe is some kind of ancient policy of the left wing. This is one of the largest mass migrations in our history. This is a new thing. The response of the right is often reactionary. Classically their forms of terror are also reactionary. Which brings me to the question:

So why is this happening?

I understand very well why people from other countries wish to improve their circumstances, nothing could be more human. Like I already said, the main vitriol of the right is against their countrymen of the left persuasion, not the refugees/migrants. This is something not entirely comprehended by the media despite the terrorism of Anders Brevik and that ignorance is itself highly problematic because it underestimates the danger of reaction.

To put it technically; xenophobia is a second order effect.

I am asking you to explain the first order effect, the cause of allowing ancient borders to be superseded. Why is this happening?

If my posts make you angry then I ask you to resist replying. If I present an opinion it is because I believe it to be so. Liberals often ask questions of authority e.g. the so-called truth to power. I am doing same thing to them and calling them to account for their actions. If this is too blasphemous or irksome we can just move onto other topics.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#217

Post by Joof »

DominikR wrote: post #91
jacquesm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In lala-economic-theory-land yes. But this is not companies competing for the favors of customers. This is nation states competing for the favors of companies and that is a totally different matter. In the real world you need taxes to operate a country and with big business being able to relocate their capital and their profits at a moments notice corporations have a substantial advantage over nation states (which ar…

> In lala-economic-theory-land yes. But this is not companies competing for the favors of customers. This is nation states competing for the favors of companies and that is a totally different matter. Why is it bad when businesses find that conditions for them constantly get better everywhere? Is there something inherently evil or bad about businesses? This is usually a position hardcore Socalists would take. > In th…

The top 10% also have more than 75% of the money, so this makes a lot of sense. They have more than 75% of the money, so I imagine it's a good bit higher than you imagine.

How do the freeloaders pay taxes like the rich if they can't afford life circumstances that allow them to get educations similar to the rich?

Healthy countries need taxes to boost their populace up to an optimal level of health and education. Maximize the people that could potentially become high-value.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#218

Post by gutnor »

sievebrain wrote: post #174
gutnor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, maybe they know better and that's a fair point. Except that the reason they voted was wrapped into propaganda level of lies and misrepresentations. The campaign on both side was so thin on facts and so big on lies that neither side really knew what they voted for. Historically, the people that are in power now are the same guys with the same ideas and the same interests than the one that have been screwing them i…

Your argument sounds clever but stands in direct contradiction with the data in the article. You argue that voters were misled and made a huge mistake because they didn't know what they were voting for, due to lies and misinformation, and thus voted against their own interests (not "technically" but in spirit). This is a summary of your argument. But the article cites polls showing that Leave voters were far more ske…

> So given that you say both campaigns lied a lot, that would imply that Leave voters were less misled by propaganda and MORE likely to know what it was they were doing.

Believing that politician are lying to you does not make you informed, it makes you uninformed. For example, if you believe your GPS is not working, and you chose to follow its direction (or not), it does not mean you know the road, you are still picking at random. I conceded that it is the case of both sides.

As I explained, the reason I believe the Leave voters voted against their best interest is not based on the Brexit campaign, it is based on who they put in charge by doing it.

> Yet that does not appear to be the conclusion you have reached. Why not?

Don't get me wrong, as I alluded before, I'm in a position to actually benefit from the Brexit. I believe that the Leave voters are going to get the shit end of the deal.

I can believe they are informed as you suggest, or I can believe they were mislead. The difference is that I may vote against my interest for the later (eg: increase my taxes), but not for the former.

As final note: better NHS, better social security, more money, more job opportunities, vibrant country side full of activity, ... The fact that I don't believe it will happen does not mean I don't want it to happen. I don't mind being proven wrong, even if that means being ridiculed every 23rd of June, or looking stupid when my kid ask me why I was Remain.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#219

Post by mistermann »

rwmj wrote: post #206
mistermann wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the magic formula they came up with where every single member is receiving precisely the same cost/benefits, and no one is getting even the slightest free ride?

Free trade isn't a zero-sum game.

Indeed it isn't, but it's also no guarantee of success, especially not to a level that magically matches some arbitrary corresponding cost.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#220

Post by ionised »

JBReefer wrote: post #197
rinze wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly, there was a significant gap between the turnout rate for the young people and the turnout rate for the elderly. https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473...

So? Are young people inherently more valuable or more correct?

No, but they have a lot more riding on the future of their country than pensioners do.
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