No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down • Hacker News Board

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#131

Post by berlin2016 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #32

Education is extremely political. It's not that we can't come up with better ways of occupying school-age children. Montessori has been around since the early 1900s! The problem is convincing everyone they need to adopt a new method. Which is absolutely completely politically impossible compared to making small tweaks to the system already present. Nobody is going to turn education upside down. Ever.

Why does everyone need to adopt a new method? There can be multiple approaches run side-by-side, the results are publicly available, parents can make an informed decision.

At least, that's the situation in Germany: There are Montessori schools, Waldorf (Rudolf Steiner) schools and various others. The thing is, most of these schools have a foundation in bullshit theories or religion. I think the fact that children have to start each day with prayer at the school in question needs to be highlighted more.

The comparably good results could equally-well be explained with the fact that the pupils at these schools are predominantly from well-to-do or at least education-oriented families. Neither the teachers nor the pupils face the same socio-economic pressures as they would in the public school system.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#132

Post by jomamaxx » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #32

Education is extremely political. It's not that we can't come up with better ways of occupying school-age children. Montessori has been around since the early 1900s! The problem is convincing everyone they need to adopt a new method. Which is absolutely completely politically impossible compared to making small tweaks to the system already present. Nobody is going to turn education upside down. Ever.

"Nobody is going to turn education upside down. Ever."

It's arguable that there really isn't that-that much difference between the programs.

Teacher -> classroom -> students -> core subjects.

Yada yada.

Motivated students, good family life, supportive parents and peers are just as important as anything.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#133

Post by jomamaxx » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

ayylmao907 wrote: post #77

I have to say I'm of the opinion that modern education is terribly inefficient, and to back my claim I offer that most people who are any good get there not by following a curriculum but by having an interest which they explore on their own. But that's just on the supposed goals of education. I feel the important achievement of modern school systems is the obedience of the populace, which from a historical perspectiv…

I think history might refute your claims.

A) Teaching methods haven't changed that much in centuries, millennia, arguably, and they are quite similar across civilizations and cultures, and they do effectively well.

B) People are more 'free' today than they have ever been in history in terms of ideas, ideals, choices, opportunities.

80 years ago you would have been expected to serve in the Army, 50 years ago - at least the draft. Most teens nowadays wouldn't even contemplate doing something remotely 'selfless' unless it was padding their resume.

So I can't help but to balk at your claim that people are 'obedient' now.

Have a look at a 'soup kitchen' line up from 1929: even the unemployed and homeless all wore suits, proper overcoats and hats. They dressed with more established decorum than Mark Zuckerberg Billionaire. I'm not saying it's right/wrong, better/worse - but I don't think it's possible to say that people today are more conformist.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#134

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:43 PM UTC

doc_holliday wrote: post #41

gurkendoktor wrote: post #27

Every time I come home from a mind-numbing eight-hour Scrum meeting, I feel frustrated for having accomplished absolutely nothing. Then I realise that this is what school was like, every single day. I'm sure some people prefer to be force-fed instead of learning on their own, but self-organised schools as in the OP should at least be an option for people who know what they want.

"eight-hour Scrum meeting" Why are you having an eight hour Scrum meeting? Isn't that the complete opposite of what a Scrum meeting is supposed to be? 15 minute max, standup meeting is a Scrum.

[deleted]

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#135

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:47 PM UTC

pekk wrote: post #128

specialist wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link, thanks for your efforts. I'll definitely read up on sudval.org. "They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens..." Word. I've run democratic teams. The empowerment is real. I can't explain it; it feels like magic. Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. Democracy, in its multitude of forms, is very much a technology. Ju…

> Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. And if a majority of wolves vote for a sheep dinner?

A well armed sheep contests the outcome...

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#136

Post by rumcajz » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

jostylr wrote: post #104

ionforce wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if students (or whoever in a power sharing dynamic) are making decisions that are bad for them? How do you veto a bad decision?

I work at Arts&Ideas Sudbury School in Baltimore, 8 years old at this point. I have been with them for two years. There is no veto. There is simply discussing the issue and revisiting it if necessary. While it is always possible that a disastrous decision will be made, anecdotally, it seems to be exceedingly rare. Students want the school to succeed. They want to be safe and respected. When you start from those place…

One thing I was always interested in w.r.t. Sudbury Schools (but never met anyone with personal experience to ask about it) is how do the students, being trained in democratic way of doing stuff, deal with real life once they finish the school. They start working for a corporation with strict command & control hierarchy, they have to deal with political system where your vote has basically zero value etc. One's naive expectation would be that they limit their choice of work to the few places which are run in truly democratic manner -- but how many of those are out there, really? If they do not, they are likely to be deeply unhappy about what they do.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#137

Post by heelhook » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

rumcajz wrote: post #136

jostylr wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Arts&Ideas Sudbury School in Baltimore, 8 years old at this point. I have been with them for two years. There is no veto. There is simply discussing the issue and revisiting it if necessary. While it is always possible that a disastrous decision will be made, anecdotally, it seems to be exceedingly rare. Students want the school to succeed. They want to be safe and respected. When you start from those place…

One thing I was always interested in w.r.t. Sudbury Schools (but never met anyone with personal experience to ask about it) is how do the students, being trained in democratic way of doing stuff, deal with real life once they finish the school. They start working for a corporation with strict command & control hierarchy, they have to deal with political system where your vote has basically zero value etc. One's naive…

> One's naive expectation would be that they limit their choice of work to the few places which are run in truly democratic manner -- but how many of those are out there, really? If they do not, they are likely to be deeply unhappy about what they do.

Why is that naive? What's stopping them from redefining work? I would venture that adults emerging from these type of school systems will be very well armed to call bullshit when they see it and not comply with it for the sake of belonging. I think you underestimate just how many good organizations, teams and opportunities are out there.

Or maybe I'm also too naive (and that's really not a passive aggressive statement, I actually mean that that could also be the case!)

EDIT: That said, I'd be very curious to learn about the challenges the alumni run into when leaving school too!

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#138

Post by mac01021 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

lllorddino wrote: post #90

> such as coding a computer game instead of sitting a maths exam. Okay I suck at math but am decent at programming and the last time I checked there is a bunch of math in game development. I agree that some subjects in school are useless but if you give a kid the option of doing whatever he wants versus learning math (which most would) then I'd say your school system sucks.

Because everybody must learn math to be successful in life? What level of math should be required?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#139

Post by lucb1e » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #32

Education is extremely political. It's not that we can't come up with better ways of occupying school-age children. Montessori has been around since the early 1900s! The problem is convincing everyone they need to adopt a new method. Which is absolutely completely politically impossible compared to making small tweaks to the system already present. Nobody is going to turn education upside down. Ever.

This comment triggers me. It touches stuff I've been thinking about a lot recently.

> The problem is convincing everyone they need to adopt a new method. Which is absolutely completely politically impossible compared to making small tweaks to the system already present.

Indeed. From experience I know that tweaks and improvements are always the way to go for management people. Did they greenlight something that didn't work? 98% of the students hated it (this happened at our school)? Do you think they reverted it? No, forget it, we need to "improve" it!

The only way to get rid of something existing, is to propose something new. If you want a new school, don't call it a "new school", that would be drastically changing and "who says it's as good as the old system? Can we prove that?" No. You'd need to call it "a new form of education", but without even calling it education. It seems old concepts can only be changed by not mentioning that they're an upgrade to an old concept.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#140

Post by berlin2016 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 11:06 PM UTC

wapapaloobop wrote: post #7

We school-educated people associate learning with authority and it's hard for us to truly grasp that education takes place most efficiently under conditions of freedom. Repealing Hitler's 1938 law against home education would be an important step for Germany.

No law against home education has been passed in 1938, nor is the school law of 1938 still in effect.

Either way, there is no law against home education per se, you can educate your children at home all you want, as long as you also send them to a legally approved school. This school could be public or private, religious or not. There are basic requirements to be fulfilled.

The fact that children are forced to attend school generally isn't a problem for all but the most radical parents. Sure, there's an off-chance that some pair of super-parents could've done a better job at education than any public or private school could ever have done. There's however a much higher chance of crackpot parents ruining their children's education with nothing but bullshit, while shielding them from information from the outside world. It's a worthy tradeoff, if you ask me.

We also do have various schools with an anti-authoritarian profile. General education isn't very authoritarian in the first place, due to the influence of the post-Nazi generation.