Dark side of a Valley software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#71

Post by lethargic_meat » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

CarpetBench wrote: post #63

Ntrails wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar experience as an ex Chef. 60+ hour weeks, 5 days a week spread over various split shifts (so rarely 2 whole days off, and half days never really feel like a break). Working for what comes out as less than minimum wage as salaried. In part because of this, I find it really difficult to deal with people I work with complaining about pay/bonuses/hours etc, because imo what I do now is way easier and probably les…

> In part because of this, I find it really difficult to deal with people I work with complaining about pay/bonuses/hours etc, I get what you're saying and that you likely don't mean any malice, but just in case: It isn't a competition to see who can have the worst working conditions. That kind of rhetoric is the same that those with capital use to suppress wages/benefits because it's obviously profitable in the long…

The best approach is to consider yourself a company. Your time is your commodity, your goal is to make profit. Don't give for free your commodity, understand well how is valued in the current market and how to increase that value.

Never go to ask for a bonus/raise because you "deserve" it, but because your skills are valued x in the current job market.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#72

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #38

The slide about watching other people getting $1-$20 million payouts while you get nothing because you joined a few months later is the worst part. This also happens outside of Silicon Valley but perhaps not to such an extreme extent. The current system is far from a meritocracy because a lot of unlucky people fall through the cracks. Given how hard I've worked, I've probably fallen through a lot of small cracks (but…

Yea, seriously. I never thought of myself as an envious person until coming out here to Silicon Valley and observing the random-jackpot nature of success. You struggle to afford a home hours away from work, while sitting right next to someone with the same skills, job title, education, work history, etc. who has a few million in the bank and drives a new Tesla, and the only difference is he started at the company 6 months before you did. :-/

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#73

Post by Kurtz79 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #67

Kurtz79 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. As soon as I start complaining about how hard and stressful my job is, I always try to remember how lucky and privileged I am, in the grand scheme of things.

This attitude is how salary ceilings take hold, how "mandatory crunch time" becomes the norm, and how the idea of work-life balance becomes a joke. Even when one's situation is relatively good, one should continue to fight for better. "I'm training my off-shore replacement, but at least I'm doing it in air-conditioning!"

No, it's not.

In case "mandatory crunch time" becomes the norm, I simply look for another job.

Being able to appreciate that I have that choice is another matter.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#74

Post by Symbiote » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #39

Symbiote wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries there are many more rules about working time. For example, in the EU it's not permitted to work more than 48 hours per week on average. As far as I know, that includes "on call" time. http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intP...

What does that have to do with anything? Are you implying there is nobody within the EU that works more than 48 hours, or that somehow magically people who call it a day after 40 hours have the same career perspective as those who don't?

> A Google site-reliability engineer starts work at 9 a.m., leaves at 7 p.m., and works in the evenings until about 10 p.m.

That's 11-12 hours per day, which in the EU would limit him to four working days per week.

For someone working normal hours but also on call, if they respond to an incident during the week they're likely to be given e.g. Friday afternoon off in return.

> career perspective

Did you mean prospects, or something else?

I'm sure it makes a difference in some companies, but there are plenty where it doesn't impress anyone.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#75

Post by gambiting » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:50 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #69

jsmith0295 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you had money left over to save, yes, you would be. You would be banking 3-4x as much money, if income and expenses remained proportional

To clarify this post (which I agree with): Imagine you're making $100 per month right now and spending $95 of it. So you're saving $5 per month. You move to the US and start making $400 per month, but your expenses skyrocket to $380 per month. But you're now saving $20 per month -- four times as much as you were before. Now imagine those savings numbers were $1k and $4k, and the difference becomes a pretty big deal.

Personally - right now I know that no matter what happens, my employer has to give me at least 3 months notice to fire me - at will employment is something that sounds almost like a bad joke around here. There does not exist any medical emergency, illness or accident, that would put me in any sort of financial difficulty. Even if 20 helicopters were engaged in transporting me to the hospital or if I had to be put on treatment costing 100k/month, I would never pay anything for it, and my NI contribution would not go up. If I lost my job as a result of an accident I would still be 100% covered. My children will never have to worry about student debt, because they either won't have any, or it will be conditional on them working, capped at a certain level and reasonable.

At the same time, I make enough to pay mortgage on a 4-bedroom house, have a car that I really like, and have the latest gadgets I like. Sure, I can't afford a rolex or a ferrari - but that's fine with me. Saving more money while working in the US and worrying about the above is just absolutely not worth it to me, but again, that's just my personal opinion.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#76

Post by GFischer » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 8:11 PM UTC

crucifiction wrote: post #68

Grahf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Your salary is relative. If you're earning 3-4x more but have to pay 3-4x more on all your expenses, are you really richer? Factor in long hours in general, unpaid overtime, crunch times, a poor work/life ratio in general, etc. It seems like the scales are balanced all wrong. That's my perception as another tech worker living in the UK. I'd love to hear an argument as to why that isn't the case.

Except the only expense likely to be 3-4x more is rent/mortgage. Everything else in the US is going to be the same or cheaper (car, food, gadgets, etc).

Healthcare is the deal-breaker for many, and it's usually WAY more than 3-4x.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#77

Post by crucifiction » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 8:41 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #76

crucifiction wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the only expense likely to be 3-4x more is rent/mortgage. Everything else in the US is going to be the same or cheaper (car, food, gadgets, etc).

Healthcare is the deal-breaker for many, and it's usually WAY more than 3-4x.

It can be. I pay about $400/month for family covergage, this is unusually high for a tech job (many of which have little or no monthly from the employee). So still only $4800 of what might be many tens of thousands of dollars extra. Even $2000/month extra rent is still only $24000 a year, usually a fraction of the higher pay.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#78

Post by dang » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 9:00 PM UTC

justatdotin wrote: post #44

gambiting wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure it's just USA. I make a good salary in the North East of UK and I was told multiple times by people from US that I'm crazy to work for that kind of money(If you moved to US, you would easily make 3-4x as much!). And sure, maybe it's true. But I enjoy working 37.5h/week, having 25 paid holiday days a year, unlimited paid sick leave and having a job that I actually like doing - plus I don't really have…

righton

Please don't post unsubstantive comments.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#79

Post by freyir » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #16

cmdkeen wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of the pre-crash stories about corporate lawyers and then investment banking working mad work weeks. The difference at least in the case of SV that more people seem to enjoy their work.

The real difference is that a lot of those corporate lawyers and investment bankers make 3-10x the salary of SV engineer (multiple $ million per year).

Of the population that attends law school, passes the bar exam, and practices law, very few end up as corporate lawyers. And fewer still make multiple millions per year. You're comparing a very broad class (SV engineers) to an extremely small class (corporate lawyers who make $XM per year).

It may be fair to say that the pay ceiling is higher for the best-paid lawyers than it is for the best-paid engineers. However, engineers can reach the same pay or much higher by taking on a management role -- CTO, technical co-founder, small business owner, etc. -- at which point, IMO, they typically cease to be engineer.

Investment banking & hedge funds are another matter, and the compensation can be ridiculous.

From Glassdoor:

- Google corporate counsel ($188k salary, $215k with bonus)

- Amazon corporate counsel ($180k salary, $250k with bonus)

- Microsoft attorney ($164k salary, $224k with bonus)

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#80

Post by lj3 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 11:51 PM UTC

dham wrote: post #15

Then: Get up at 6am, go to work at grocery store. Get paid $7 an hour. Get out at 1pm, go to school. Go back to grocery store at 7 work till 12. Wake up do it again. Weekends nope. Holidays nope. Now: Wake up at 8 get to work at like 8:45 work till 6 or 7. Sit in air conditioning all day at a computer. Free lunch. Go home, don't worry about anything. No tests to study for, no worrying about paying rent. Holidays off.…

I worked in factory for a while. Wake up at 7am. Be at work by 8am. Work until 12:30. Half hour for lunch. Work until 4:30. Then your day is OVER. You go home and do whatever the hell you want. The stress is lower, the pay is lower and you get much more effective free time. Oh and you don't feel like your brain is about to explode when you go home at 10pm.

tl;dr: yes, there are worse jobs than programming, but not many. The ridiculous amounts of stress is one of the reasons Silicon Valley pays so much more than Industry jobs.