Live data from Hacker News

Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

bbc.com

91–100 of 255 posts

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#91
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important feature of German that I strongly miss in English (and probably other languages, too) is the easiness that one can make new words (in particular nouns) by juxtaposition (and indeed, importantly, you can often rely on the fact that more complicated words are constructed this way). I really wish a lot more English words were built by juxtaposition from more simple concepts instead of being own words…

Mandarin Chinese does much the same as German. English prefers to borrow words from other languages. Curiously, it has borrowed hardly any words from Mandarin Chinese.

> English prefers to borrow words from other languages. Curiously, it has borrowed hardly any words from Mandarin Chinese.

Besides that there had been much less contact between English speaking countries and China than to, say, German, French or Spanish speaking countries (at least until the Chinese economy began to boom) there is another reason that I can imagine. Since the Chinese dialects/languages are tonal languages their sound is much more foreign to the ear of people who didn't grew up with a tonal languages. Indeed people who learnt to speak one of the Chinese dialects told me one of the first exercises is learning to even consciously perceive the different tones.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#92
post #2

French is one of those dying tongues. In France we don't speak french anymore, we speak franglais, a mix of french and english words.

Quebec is trying to save French through some crazy laws: - You can't have a company whose name isn't French. - The company I work for had to replace all keyboards by French keyboards, had to switch to an HR software available in French, had to switch all OSes to French, had to put French stickers on the microwave oven, etc. - I can't send my kid to an English school if I haven't been to one myself.

On the other hand, at this point, anyone under 30 in Quebec is fluent in English, because they had to be to pass school. I've only had trouble making myself intelligible to people 40-60+, and even then, that tends to be when I am way, way north-east towards Baie Comeau.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#93
post #81
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

> If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. We do something similar to that already. Kids make up their own lingo when playing, subgroups invent new slangs within a single language, areas make their own dialect, we invent new cultural languages (e.g. music ge…

>you really don't know what actual cultural diversity is //

So a young nomadic Mongolian girl and I (UK, middle-age, male, working in craft/retail) don't represent different cultures because we can both speak English?

Go on, explain, clearly I don't understand.

Didn't you already explain that there were vastly different subcultures within the population of English language speakers? Don't you think there's more to culture than mutual unintelligibility?

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#94
post #81
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

> If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. We do something similar to that already. Kids make up their own lingo when playing, subgroups invent new slangs within a single language, areas make their own dialect, we invent new cultural languages (e.g. music ge…

> Single language = single universal culture = same shit all over the world, no diversity.

Like Morocco, Saudi, Turkey, and Indonesia all have the same culture, because Standard Arabic is common due to Islam?

Or England, Kenya, and India are so culturally identical because English is a standard language across them?

Or how it's difficult to tell a Spaniard apart from a Mexican, because they both speak Spanish and hence are culturally identical?

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#95
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German, however, has schadenfreude, gestalt, eigenvalue, angst, weltschmerz and poltergeist ;)

English had all of these, exactly. Every child knows poltergeist, from Harry Potter. Every teenager knows angst. The others are less universal, but I'd expect a university graduate to know them.

That's kind of the point - English imported them from German (or, rather, just uses German words). English does that all the time. Same with French - rendezvous, cachet (don't confuse with cache :), passé, etc. So French speakers shouldn't feel bad for taking words from English - that happens all the time, just this time English is more popular so other languages take from it. Before that it was German and French, and in 100 years maybe it will be Mandarin, who knows.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#96
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

This sounds like the view of someone who has never been exposed to more than one language. If one were to try applying that idea to programming languages, they would get laughed off HackerNews. They'd be told to just "pick the right tool for the job." Perhaps you meant that we should only have a few or one dialects of each [major] language, which is more reasonable.

No one language, or any system of communicating intent, is perfect.

There are figuratively countless nuances in each language that you just can't express in another. Which is why even English doesn't have just English words. I almost feel irritated just having to point out things which should be obvious..

Language is also art; even through my limited exposure to Japanese, for example, I've noticed many expressions that just wouldn't work in English, and definitely wouldn't convey the same intent or feelings, or paint the same picture so to speak, no matter how you imported them.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#97
post #94
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. We do something similar to that already. Kids make up their own lingo when playing, subgroups invent new slangs within a single language, areas make their own dialect, we invent new cultural languages (e.g. music ge…

> Single language = single universal culture = same shit all over the world, no diversity. Like Morocco, Saudi, Turkey, and Indonesia all have the same culture, because Standard Arabic is common due to Islam? Or England, Kenya, and India are so culturally identical because English is a standard language across them? Or how it's difficult to tell a Spaniard apart from a Mexican, because they both speak Spanish and hen…

Turkey and Indonesia do not use Arabic for communication. There's an Arabic continuum, and Saudi Arabic is rather different from Moroccan Arabic. There are subtle cultural differences preserved in the diversity of language.

England, Kenya, and India all speak English, but English is merely a common language, and a lot of cultural differences come from the linguistic diversity in each of those countries.

Culture is a result of multiple factors, one of which is language. Monolingualism is certainly one large step towards a homogenous culture.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#98
post #64
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

I believe that this is one of the best things that TV has given us - the homogenization, and adoption of the English language. It eases communication and trade across cultures. It also makes it cheaper to recruit people from all around the world with a given skill. Right now, there's a shortage in skilled welders. There's a massive number of skilled welders in Asia that make bit less money than the welders here do. W…

I love English language, but I don't like it, and I find it unfortunate that it is the English language that has acquired the status of the most important international language today. Even the "standard" pronunciation turns out to be extremely hard to do correctly for non-native speakers, for many even after years of speaking it. The distinction between some phonemes is way too subtle for them to get right; some words are pronounced the same while spelled differently; some are the other way around. There is too much reliance on the context in determining the exact meaning of a word... The list can go on. The language was born as one among several used by the tribes living on an island, which may explain why it is so different from the languages of continental Europe.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#99
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Single language = single universal culture = same shit all over the world, no diversity. Like Morocco, Saudi, Turkey, and Indonesia all have the same culture, because Standard Arabic is common due to Islam? Or England, Kenya, and India are so culturally identical because English is a standard language across them? Or how it's difficult to tell a Spaniard apart from a Mexican, because they both speak Spanish and hen…

Turkey and Indonesia do not use Arabic for communication. There's an Arabic continuum, and Saudi Arabic is rather different from Moroccan Arabic. There are subtle cultural differences preserved in the diversity of language. England, Kenya, and India all speak English, but English is merely a common language, and a lot of cultural differences come from the linguistic diversity in each of those countries. Culture is a…

It takes a few weeks of practice to be able to intelligbly understand someone from India, Kenya, England, the US, or Australia, if you're from one of the others. Cadences and idioms are all off.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#100
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

This sounds like the view of someone who has never been exposed to more than one language. If one were to try applying that idea to programming languages, they would get laughed off HackerNews. They'd be told to just "pick the right tool for the job." Perhaps you meant that we should only have a few or one dialects of each [major] language, which is more reasonable. No one language, or any system of communicating int…

I have yet to come across any concept in any human language that can’t be expressed in English.

Sure in some languages some concept can be expressed more subtly or poetically, but the concept can be expressed provided the assumed knowledge is present. It is the lack of assumed cultural knowledge that prevents these Japanese expressions from making sense in English, not that they can’t be expressed in English in principle.

Post reply on HN