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Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

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Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#41
post #9

If computer scientists made similar emotional arguments: Save EBCDIC because diversity. No. Full stop. It's the adherents' of these cultures (speakers' of these languages) duty to compile and/or translate their cultural insights and knowledge. If they fail to do that - good bye, it probably wasn't that important, otherwise the culture or language would have been dominant.

The point is that the existing speakers would like to preserve the language, but might not have resources for doing so. One good thing is that technology allows us right now to do archiving in an easier way. Recording speech, stories, and songs can be done more conveniently. Learning resources can be created in a better way. Problem is that the tools for all this might not be accessible to people living in remote areas if they do wish to preserve their language.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#42
post #26
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We probably would invent new languages, or at least new dialects, to signal group membership. If somebody has made the effort to learn the language then they're probably serious about being part of the group. As a practical example, consider the revival of the Hebrew language, which happened mostly as an expression of Jewish identity. Strengthening group identity is the main motivation for preserving rare languages.

The maintenance of Yiddish is an extreme example. It's explicitly used to prevent ultra-orthodox Jews from "straying off the path" and joining the larger society.[1] In Israel, the ultra-orthodox speak Yiddish, not Hebrew, and often don't even know Hebrew. This is the use of a dying tongue as a means of social control. [1] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/off-the-path-of-orth...

I think it's a bit different - these communities (which BTW are a minority even among orthodox religious Jews) choose to speak Yiddish and not Hebrew to express their detachment and disconnection with modern Jewry and specifically Israel. Secondary consideration is the status of Hebrew as the holy language, not to be used in mundane and profane matters. This was long the case in the Jewish diaspora, but with the start of the Haskalah project and the idea of Israel as the Jewish state, this has changed. These communities have not accepted these changes and thus try to preserve their way of life as it was beforehand. The use of Yiddish here is more of a consequence than the reason.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#43
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

Do you feel the same about the rest of your culture too?

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#44
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

I am willing to give up my language in favour of a world language - in fact, I have already done that. I think in English. I write all my poetry, stories and dreams in English, I only communicate in that language unless it's with family or coworkers. I pretty much gave up on my native language. I feel like English is superior in many ways because it has words that my language does not, which forces me to describe awk…

German, however, has schadenfreude, gestalt, eigenvalue, angst, weltschmerz and poltergeist ;)

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#45
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

I am willing to give up my language in favour of a world language - in fact, I have already done that. I think in English. I write all my poetry, stories and dreams in English, I only communicate in that language unless it's with family or coworkers. I pretty much gave up on my native language. I feel like English is superior in many ways because it has words that my language does not, which forces me to describe awk…

Having more specific or less specific words is not necessarily a weakness or strength of a language - sometimes being able to express both happiness and luck in a single word might be useful, and I imagine it is easy to specify either one or the other concept with a quick paraphrase if necessary.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#46
post #28
post #2

French is one of those dying tongues. In France we don't speak french anymore, we speak franglais, a mix of french and english words.

French is currently unique in that it's the previous lingua franca, so much so that the term for "world language" in English is a French term. That French is now using loan words from English doesn't mean that it's dying. Have you tried to speak English without French / Latin / Norse loan words? Good luck. It just means that French is like any other language now, aggressively borrowing from the current world language…

not quite. The term "lingua Franca" originally referred to a Mediterranean trading language - certainly a Romance language but not French. Yes for a while French was a lingua Franca in the modern sense but the term doesn't come from French.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#47
post #30
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

Like, if we all spoke English? glesga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xan2xU-ZFic Irish "What's filim?" https://youtu.be/UJ1Akr-UBis?t=57s Geordie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY4TT3VtR8o 120 miles from Glasgow to Newcastle. 250 miles from Glasgow to Westport, Ireland.

The British class system plus geography (I grew up in the Midlands and south) means it takes me a few minutes to understand anything at all of the Scottish clip, and a few seconds for the Geordie one. The Irish is no problem, but real (not mainstream tv) Irish would be.

But, in my experience, people speaking these dialects could communicate with someone from elsewhere easily. They're also less different than they would have been decades ago.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#48
post #11
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

Re: "And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages?" We just borrow the relevant words :)

Sometimes it is not just individual words, but grammatical structures which make things more succint. Latin has lots of such like your gerundives or your supines where you can express with a simple word ending what would take a bunch of words in English

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#49
post #2

French is one of those dying tongues. In France we don't speak french anymore, we speak franglais, a mix of french and english words.

Quebec is trying to save French through some crazy laws: - You can't have a company whose name isn't French. - The company I work for had to replace all keyboards by French keyboards, had to switch to an HR software available in French, had to switch all OSes to French, had to put French stickers on the microwave oven, etc. - I can't send my kid to an English school if I haven't been to one myself.

"Big Mac is Big Mac, but they call it Le Big Mac" (C)

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#50
post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

On the other hand, maybe having multiple cultures might be a good idea if it provides firewalls against the spread of bad ideas, and allows competition between groups pf people with different cultural outlooks.
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