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Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

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Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#51

Post by Symbiote »

smsm42 wrote: post #44
Kenji wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to give up my language in favour of a world language - in fact, I have already done that. I think in English. I write all my poetry, stories and dreams in English, I only communicate in that language unless it's with family or coworkers. I pretty much gave up on my native language. I feel like English is superior in many ways because it has words that my language does not, which forces me to describe awk…

German, however, has schadenfreude, gestalt, eigenvalue, angst, weltschmerz and poltergeist ;)

English had all of these, exactly.

Every child knows poltergeist, from Harry Potter. Every teenager knows angst.

The others are less universal, but I'd expect a university graduate to know them.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#52

Post by riffraff »

wvenable wrote: post #40
freyfogle wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, of course we would invent new languages. We do this continually. In any big language there are many different dialects. This is a way to signal group identity. Over time they become new languages. Latin becomes French, Spanish, Romanian, etc. If you disagree why do you not speak your English with a (choose those that don't apply:) English / southern / Indian / Scottish / Irish / South African / Jamaican / New En…

This is still somewhat historical. Latin becoming French, Spanish, Romanian, and all accents are all a product of geography. France, Spain, Romania, etc. It's not group entity, it's location identity. But the generations aren't separated by geography anymore. Well there may well be intellectual advantages for multilingualism, different unilingualism typically just leads to conflict.

> all accents are all a product of geography

not necessarily, there is often a clear split between social classes of groups of people (i.e. consider the association of "cockney" with working class, or the discussion around "ebonics" for african-american-english)

And there are cases where specific communities evolve their own sub-languages (e.g. cants and argots).

There is surely less separation now then there once was, but it never was only geography, it's just that geography is the strongest separator.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#53

Post by derriz »

mablap wrote: post #10
ggreer wrote: post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

Indeed. And why have multiple OSes - imagine the utilitarian value of having every computer in the world run Windows.

The claim that different computer languages are easier to learn than different human languages betrays an incredible lack of perspective - 99% of humankind cannot manage even a single programming language while the majority worldwide are at least bilingual.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#54

Post by DonaldFisk »

ggreer wrote: post #14
mablap wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

The reason we have lots of programming languages is because: 1. They're not that different. Once you've learned a few, picking up new ones is pretty easy. 2. They're much easier to learn than human languages. To answer your first question: I probably wouldn't stop using english myself, but I don't think I'd teach it to my children.

Never mind differences: are there any similarities between, for example, C and Prolog?

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#55

Post by thesoonerdev »

riffraff wrote: post #52
wvenable wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still somewhat historical. Latin becoming French, Spanish, Romanian, and all accents are all a product of geography. France, Spain, Romania, etc. It's not group entity, it's location identity. But the generations aren't separated by geography anymore. Well there may well be intellectual advantages for multilingualism, different unilingualism typically just leads to conflict.

> all accents are all a product of geography not necessarily, there is often a clear split between social classes of groups of people (i.e. consider the association of "cockney" with working class, or the discussion around "ebonics" for african-american-english) And there are cases where specific communities evolve their own sub-languages (e.g. cants and argots). There is surely less separation now then there once wa…

Does it mean, then, that as the people who are anti-immigration such as Donald Trump get elected and geographic mobility (potentially) decreases, we can work our way backwards and say that these languages are less likely to die? In other words, does the trend towards anti-globalization lead to the unexpected side effect that some languages may actually take longer to die?

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#56

Post by x3n0ph3n3 »

jfaucett wrote: post #22

As much as I feel sad about losing so many amazing languages, these arguments are weak emotional appeals at best. The only legitimate argument you can make for keeping minority languages around is to basically reframe the context and say your goal as a society is to promote cultural and linguistic diversity because society needs it more than it does a highly effecient raw information processing system. As a programme…

I'm not sure where you're coming from education-wise, but monocultures are viewed as negatives even in computer science [1]. They reduce resiliency to unexpected disasters in both cyber and meat spaces.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoculture_(computer_science)

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#58

Post by derriz »

Kenji wrote: post #9

If computer scientists made similar emotional arguments: Save EBCDIC because diversity. No. Full stop. It's the adherents' of these cultures (speakers' of these languages) duty to compile and/or translate their cultural insights and knowledge. If they fail to do that - good bye, it probably wasn't that important, otherwise the culture or language would have been dominant.

Maybe we should all program C on Windows - and only teach it - because any alternative that is not "dominant" has no value or importance?

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#59

Post by kazinator »

mablap wrote: post #10
ggreer wrote: post #5

It's not a well-liked view, but I'm very glad that humanity is on the path to speaking only a few languages (or perhaps just one). If you disagree, consider this thought experiment: Imagine if the entire world spoke a single language. Would we ever want to invent new languages, making mutual communication harder? It would be silly. I do feel for the speakers of these dying tongues, but in the long run, this is a good…

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

> Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin?

If only 321 people are left in the world speaking English, and billions speak Mandarin, absolutely!

It means that the world has basically said "to hell with English", and you're best off if you do too.

Re: Languages: Why we must save dying tongues (2014)

#60

Post by kazinator »

ggreer wrote: post #14
mablap wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you willing to stop speaking, reading, thinking, writing in English and use Mandarin? And what about the fact that some concepts and words are enunciated more succintly or clearly in different languages? I mean, you have the perfect example in front of you: why are there so many programming languages? Could it be that some language constructs are more difficult in one language vs the other? Why invent new program…

The reason we have lots of programming languages is because: 1. They're not that different. Once you've learned a few, picking up new ones is pretty easy. 2. They're much easier to learn than human languages. To answer your first question: I probably wouldn't stop using english myself, but I don't think I'd teach it to my children.

3. You can teach millions of computers to obey a new language just by copying its implementation onto them. You can make something that reaches countless users even if you're the only person working in your language.
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