Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement • Hacker News Board

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#11

Post by w1ntermute » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 6:50 AM UTC

Snargorf wrote: post #2

My old hypothesis is that in a reasonably free society, families reach their "destination" socioeconomic status after 3 generations. Even if they immigrate as refugees on rusty boats, or lose everything in a holocaust or internment camps. Or, even if they win the lottery. After three generations, they hit their level, whether it's at the bottom or the top. And then they stay there. It's IQ, an absence of stimulation-…

A very important part of "long mental time horizon" is picking a good spouse and raising your children well, traits often absent in those who shoot to wealth in one generation.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#12

Post by daxorid » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 6:57 AM UTC

gxs wrote: post #3

I have always wondered what exactly is going on in society: People in the US, more so than other countries, have a plausible chance of going to college, even if it takes going in to massive debt. Then, they will go on to find a mate who is likely also college educated, and in a similar income bracket. Over time, doesn't this mean that we're breeding (for lack of a better term) a class of people who are a) capable of…

Yes, it is a well studied phenomenon called assortative mating.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#13

Post by nradov » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 7:15 AM UTC

Snargorf wrote: post #2

My old hypothesis is that in a reasonably free society, families reach their "destination" socioeconomic status after 3 generations. Even if they immigrate as refugees on rusty boats, or lose everything in a holocaust or internment camps. Or, even if they win the lottery. After three generations, they hit their level, whether it's at the bottom or the top. And then they stay there. It's IQ, an absence of stimulation-…

Families are not genetically stable. There is very little inbreeding in Western societies, so a grandparent and grandchild may not be genetically close.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#14

Post by peteretep » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 7:52 AM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #6

gxs wrote: post #3

I have always wondered what exactly is going on in society: People in the US, more so than other countries, have a plausible chance of going to college, even if it takes going in to massive debt. Then, they will go on to find a mate who is likely also college educated, and in a similar income bracket. Over time, doesn't this mean that we're breeding (for lack of a better term) a class of people who are a) capable of…

The Bell Curve (1994) talked about the intellectual stratification that is happening in society. The author and resulting research was called "racist" and has been shouted down time and time again but much of what you say is discussed in the book. He shows correlation between intelligence and [income, parent's socioeconomic status (SES), job security/unemployment, educational attainment, and tons of other things]. Th…

    > the book is generally forbidden to be discussed in
    > "polite" company

The problem with studies like this - and also ones that for example attempt to show race-linked differences in "positive factors" - is that they're pretty useless for anything other than the uneducated using as a blunt discrimination tool.

Let's say you live in a society where there are blue and green people. A study shows a genetic basis for a difference - on average across the whole population - where blue people are 10% less intelligent and 10% more violent.

What's next? Are you justified in preferring to hire green people? No. Are you justified in having greens-only policies? Of course not, that's not how averages work. Is there any basis for any kind of segregation? Any basis for any color-based policies? No.

But you can be sure that there will be green people trying to use these studies to show themselves as superior, as a basis for discrimination, for popularist politics, and all the other associated bullshit.

It's precisely because there's almost no practical use for studies like these, but they are absolutely pounced upon by racists and opportunists, that they're 'generally forbidden to be discussed in "polite" company'.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#15

Post by j15t » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 8:15 AM UTC

lamarkia wrote: post #10

It is annoying how such studies presume that genetics are a factor in academic achievement. They can be evidence that social mobility is not happening and that academic achievement requires a certain attitude by the parents and their social class.

I don't see how this study is 'presuming' anything. The results section quite early explores the creation between genetic and non-genetic factors:

> To test whether intelligence mediates the observed association between family SES and children’s educational achievement, we statistically controlled for intelligence by regressing GCSE on intelligence and entering the resulting standardized residuals into the bivariate GCTA model with family SES. When controlling for variance explained by children’s intelligence, which yielded a univariate GCTA estimate of 0.38 (0.11 s.e.) (data not shown), the phenotypic correlation between family SES and children’s educational achievement was reduced from 0.50 to 0.37 (0.02 s.e.). The GCTA estimate of the genetic covariation between family SES and children’s educational achievement dropped from 0.25 (0.09 s.e.) to 0.17 (0.09 s.e.). Mirroring the mediation observed at the phenotypic level, this suggests that one-third of the SNPs tagging variation in family SES and children’s educational achievement also captured individual differences in intelligence, implying two-thirds of the SNPs linking family SES and children’s educational achievement were independent of intelligence.

The heritability of IQ and it's effect on SES is well document, but it obviously isn't the only relevant factor. I don't believe equality of outcome is feasible in this regard.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#16

Post by mrmffh » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 8:20 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #14

caseysoftware wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bell Curve (1994) talked about the intellectual stratification that is happening in society. The author and resulting research was called "racist" and has been shouted down time and time again but much of what you say is discussed in the book. He shows correlation between intelligence and [income, parent's socioeconomic status (SES), job security/unemployment, educational attainment, and tons of other things]. Th…

> the book is generally forbidden to be discussed in > "polite" company The problem with studies like this - and also ones that for example attempt to show race-linked differences in "positive factors" - is that they're pretty useless for anything other than the uneducated using as a blunt discrimination tool. Let's say you live in a society where there are blue and green people. A study shows a genetic basis for a d…

Ignoring reality is the worst possible option. Regarding your assertion, judging an individual by their collective group average is wrong. I'm a big proponent of research in this area - because I want to change it. For e.g. Black Americans have an IQ, on average, 15 points lower than white Americans. I want more research on this area, so it can be improved. Calling people racists (without evidence) shuts down any meaningful conversation, and hurts those who need the most help.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#17

Post by j15t » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 8:25 AM UTC

gxs wrote: post #3

I have always wondered what exactly is going on in society: People in the US, more so than other countries, have a plausible chance of going to college, even if it takes going in to massive debt. Then, they will go on to find a mate who is likely also college educated, and in a similar income bracket. Over time, doesn't this mean that we're breeding (for lack of a better term) a class of people who are a) capable of…

I think you'll find that birthrates are negatively correlated with education level, so globally the reverse is happening (with regards to your breeding theory).

But more generally, the reason why evolution works is because organisms are not equal (mutation and crossover are random). I don't expect that this will stop any time soon.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#18

Post by ars » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 8:29 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #14

caseysoftware wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bell Curve (1994) talked about the intellectual stratification that is happening in society. The author and resulting research was called "racist" and has been shouted down time and time again but much of what you say is discussed in the book. He shows correlation between intelligence and [income, parent's socioeconomic status (SES), job security/unemployment, educational attainment, and tons of other things]. Th…

> the book is generally forbidden to be discussed in > "polite" company The problem with studies like this - and also ones that for example attempt to show race-linked differences in "positive factors" - is that they're pretty useless for anything other than the uneducated using as a blunt discrimination tool. Let's say you live in a society where there are blue and green people. A study shows a genetic basis for a d…

The usefulness is if you see a deficiency in a student (or anyone) you can properly understand the reason for it.

When you understand the reason you have a chance at actually making things better.

I.e. use the data after seeing the performance of someone, rather than using it to predict their performance.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#19

Post by mrmffh » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 8:30 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #5

gxs wrote: post #3

I have always wondered what exactly is going on in society: People in the US, more so than other countries, have a plausible chance of going to college, even if it takes going in to massive debt. Then, they will go on to find a mate who is likely also college educated, and in a similar income bracket. Over time, doesn't this mean that we're breeding (for lack of a better term) a class of people who are a) capable of…

Equal opportunity, not equal outcome or talent.

I agree, although I think 'Equality of process' is more accurate than 'opportunity'.

Re: Genetic link between family SES and children's educational achievement

#20

Post by vixen99 » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 8:34 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #14

caseysoftware wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bell Curve (1994) talked about the intellectual stratification that is happening in society. The author and resulting research was called "racist" and has been shouted down time and time again but much of what you say is discussed in the book. He shows correlation between intelligence and [income, parent's socioeconomic status (SES), job security/unemployment, educational attainment, and tons of other things]. Th…

> the book is generally forbidden to be discussed in > "polite" company The problem with studies like this - and also ones that for example attempt to show race-linked differences in "positive factors" - is that they're pretty useless for anything other than the uneducated using as a blunt discrimination tool. Let's say you live in a society where there are blue and green people. A study shows a genetic basis for a d…

However let's say the figure is 50%. Does the argument still follow? At what % would we inevitably be forced to pay attention? For instance, would anyone want to increase the chance of a violent encounter occurring in their workplace. Fortunately we can relax because these supposed assumptions currently belong in fairy land.

'Popularist'. Isn't it better to spell out what is meant here rather than use a word often by elites (self selected smaller powerful groups) to refer to any democratic decision of which the elite does not approve? It's one of those rolling stone expressions that saves its users time and effort by carrying with it a boat-load of subtext.