Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 449 posts

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#331

Post by aianus »

chii wrote: post #190
prostoalex wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. I don't think it's European vs American CEOs, it's treating software engineering as cost center vs value creator. Even in the US one would likely have a hard time procuring a large compensation package employed as a software engineer in a utility company,…

> have a hard time procuring a large compensation package employed as a software engineer in a utility company in which case, there ought to be market pressure for software engineers to move away from such companies. When the company finds out they actually need a good programmer, they end up having to pay more again for quality (perhaps, indirectly, via consulting companies). But the current anecdotal evidence is th…

> But the current anecdotal evidence is that those companies _can_ pay very little, and yet, no catastrophe has happened.

Healthcare.gov?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#332

Post by Joeri »

cageface wrote: post #137
nemothekid wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. I don't think the 10x programmer is a valid concept. If a company believes they can easily replace you for that price, then chances are you aren't working on anything that that makes you irreplaceable. Why should an employer pay you more for the same amount of work? I also have reservations about looking at work as "an intimate family-like rela…

I don't think there is such a thing as a 10x programmer if we're just talking about implementation. Where there is easily a 10x factor or more is making the right architectural decisions up front. An experienced dev can avoid making mistakes that can doom a project right out of the gate.

Another way to make an order of magnitude difference is to approach the problem from the 'why' perspective and come up with a different solution that is a lot less work.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#333

Post by ChuckMcM »

gordaco wrote: post #191
gutnor wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be better - I was looking for work in Spain just before the crisis. A senior dev could easily do 50K, banking positions were 70K and up. Nowadays however, you can't find anything over 35K that is related to development -and- in Spain ( i.e. not a position in Germany) Anyway - Spain does not have a problem of running out of worker, it has a problem of not paying those workers. I have been looking for years…

Another spaniard here, and I can confirm that it absolutely is a problem of not wanting to pay appropriate wages. First, most software companies only offer crappy jobs that don't require specific skills. Most of the job postings are for standard developing positions in very common languages such as Java or Python. Considering how many people finish their degree or their FP ( Formación Profesional , courses of about t…

I have read a number of other articles which say essentially this as well, that essentially you aren't paid a market wage in Spain so the only people who work in Spain in technology have some alternate reason why they can't (or don't want to) leave.

I find these sorts of problems intriguing from a microeconomics perspective. There was a store in a small midwest town which closed because it couldn't afford to pay its workers, and felt if it raised its prices no one would shop there. The next closest store was 20 miles away. So people with the choice of buying something locally for 10 to 15% more than buying it remotely, it would seem would rather drive the 40 miles to get what ever it was they were looking for.

So how do economies get into these inversions? Is it globalization? is it an expectation of price or value? Is it the difference between economic action versus values?

So if Spain did pay a market wage what would impact be on other costs? Who do those companies sell to? In market? Out of market?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#334

Post by lightbendover »

jfoster wrote: post #152
vemv wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that measuring productivity is a hard, universal problem. While I don't claim to commit 10x more LOCs, I do write exceptional abstractions that allow me to get things done in a quick, robust way. I've met far too many 'senior' developers blatantly breaking DRY because they don't really know/use all features $language or $framework has to offer.

I think you're missing Jare's point. You don't need an amazingly powerful engine in your car to go at 20 miles/hour, just as companies don't need 10x programmers to work on the types of software problems that Jare asserts Spanish companies are working on.

In my experience, the real '10x' productivity bump comes from engineers who can internalize huge swaths of the codebase and make all of the necessary connections. Given a large enough product, that will be out of reach for the majority, due to either dedication or capacity. Hearing about a new feature and instantly knowing the implementation points and consequences instead of having to fumble around parts of the system you're not familiar with is easily '10x,' LOC be damned.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#335

Post by alvarosm »

acchow wrote: post #74
muse900 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that salary excessive tbh. I understand working remotely for a US company and get a US based salary, truth is that the companies that will do that are mostly startups and I don't think they have the funds for high end salaries. Except if you are a genius dev and they do need you and you go off and tell them that you want to work from home and live in another Country. I do think though you can get jobs that pay…

I suggest taking a look at HN's "Who is Hiring" monthly threads. Try to focus on remote work for Bay Area companies - minimum should be $100k/annually for a good dev.

That's the thing, you're not getting a "good dev" in Spain. And that's why they cost just 36k or are unemployed.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#336

Post by mtrn »

A company once flew me to Madrid for an interview. Unfortunately, I cannot understand Spanish, but the receptionist at the hotel seemed to mumble to a friend: look they are flying people here, but our people are unemployed. It seemed a bit crazy for me as well, since I was unsure, if my person and skills justified that kind of effort.

The interview went fine and I think I was offered something around 30k, which was below my current wage in another (non-capital) European city, so I had to decline, although I loved Madrid and the team seemed really nice.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#337

Post by knocte »

pvaldes wrote: post #330
knocte wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is hilarious, in itself. Actually, you're hilarious.

Glad to be able to put some happiness in your world. Now seriously; do you think that one single unnamed study can be token as proof of what they are claiming? This is not much different to that 'The scientists say that...' mantra. How many executives were evaluated? 3?, 5?, 50?. We don't know.

That's why we Spaniards need to pitch in give our opinion about each point raised.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#338

Post by alvarosm »

ldng wrote: post #13
davidgerard wrote: post #2

Pay. More. This. Is. The. Market. Speaking.

The wages were too low. The skilled spaniard fled the country. Combined that cuting spendings in education. And now act surprised at the result.

Very few Spaniards are skilled enough to "flee" the country, let alone speak enough English (or any other language) to be able to work abroad. Wages are low because both companies and workers are not very valuable. Companies are not adding enough value to pay good workers and good workers are extremely hard to come by anyway.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#339

Post by alvarosm »

dmix wrote: post #27
ldng wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wages were too low. The skilled spaniard fled the country. Combined that cuting spendings in education. And now act surprised at the result.

> Combined that cuting spendings in education. I highly doubt they were cutting spending to CS courses and medical programs. More education doesn't solve the '5 million people unemployed' problem. Having the right education is what matters. That often doesn't require throwing more money at the problem. Especially when the vast majority of education financing goes down administrative black holes. Just saying 'cutting…

Yeah, but that's the intoxication you can hear in the Spanish media all day long. How the next politician is going to solve everything by throwing money everywhere... you can see how a society that readily swallows that crap can't be very skilled at doing any kind of work.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#340

Post by SixSigma »

patrickaljord wrote: post #263
SixSigma wrote: post #164

The agriculture sector employs many North African illegal immigrants. Visit the greenhouses of Almeria and see what happens when you take your camera from its bag.

The do so because local people don't want to do these jobs.

If people don't want to do a job, it is because it is not suitably remunerated.

Using illegal labour instead should not be defended. It undercuts the position of the legal workers.

Post reply on HN