Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#131

Post by duckingtest » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:50 AM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #14

altoz wrote: post #8

You have two groups: 1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers The employers complaining about people in group 2 being scarce are merely not paying enough. The workers complaining in group 1 need more skills that the market wants. They're at different ends of the spectrum. Other than that they live in the same country, they really don't have much to do with each other. Whether you can convert…

Very true. Just compare salaries of software engineers in most EU countries with salaries in the US. If you're a good developer, 99% of the time it's better to work remotely from Europe for a US company. It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. They're probably the same people who think you need 1…

I don't think it's that developers are underpaid in Europe. They are just objectively less productive there. After all it's a very specialized job that requires modern, developed economy open to disruptions to be really productive. On the extreme opposite end of a spectrum - a pre-industrial economy - a developer's productivity would be zero.

American nominal GDP per capita is 2.13 times that of Spain's and 1.38x that of Germany's, and the distance keeps increasing. There are many possible causes, but I think lower salaries are a symptom.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#132

Post by pkaye » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:27 AM UTC

yulaow wrote: post #117

gleenn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's very true, but it still seems a little crazy that you're doing the same work and getting paid 20-25% of a SV job.

It depends also on how many hours do you work. Here is pretty common you never go over 38hours week, and if you have to you are compensated very well (1.5~2.5 x normal hour rate). For what I read (but probably there is a little bias in it) in SV there is a partially workcentered style of life when you have to work often >60h with a salaried contract (that, btw, here in EU they do not exist... you are paid with an exp…

It is not quite bad as it may seen in SV. Most people work 8am to 5pm as gauged by the traffic peak periods. Some start earlier or later but most work around 40 hours. Rarely do you see much traffic or people at work on the weekends. There are certainly places where people work like long hours but one doesn't have to work in those places. There are plenty of other options.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#133

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:51 AM UTC

yulaow wrote: post #78

themartorana wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

[deleted]

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#134

Post by MawNicker » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

vemv wrote: post #69

nemothekid wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. I don't think the 10x programmer is a valid concept. If a company believes they can easily replace you for that price, then chances are you aren't working on anything that that makes you irreplaceable. Why should an employer pay you more for the same amount of work? I also have reservations about looking at work as "an intimate family-like rela…

> chances are you aren't working on anything that that makes you irreplaceable. Or, they cannot really appreciate the quality or even the speed of my work. Clueless people abound. > I also have reservations about looking at work as "an intimate family-like relationship" You misread my original sentence - I'm with you on this one!

> Or, they cannot really appreciate the quality or even the speed of my work. Clueless people abound.

Many "10x programmers" aren't anywhere near 10x faster/better/etc in an environment full of 1x programmers. I think "exponential" would be a better description than 10x. If you watch them in the short term they look similar to the 1x programmers. If you distribute their exponential gains over the whole team then this will always be true. These types are like successful hedge fund managers in the domain of technical investment and debt. If you let them work alone long enough you'll start to see their foresight paying dividends.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#135

Post by dthal » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

>>“It’s a paradox,” said Valentin Bote, head of research in Spain at Randstad, a recruitment agency. “The unemployment rate is too high. Yet we’re seeing some tension in the labor market because unemployed people don’t have the skills employers demand.

There's no real paradox there. Employment of young people, and therefore normal career progression for that cohort, essentially shut down for 6-8 years. Now the pipeline is a little empty.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#136

Post by franciscop » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 3:18 AM UTC

Spanish dev here. I created with some friends the most active Maker group in Spain [1]. We won contests like Hyperloop's, NASA's SpaceApps (once winners, twice finalists), making robot competitions [2], teaching to everyone, etc. A couple of days ago we were talking about who would continue it, since ALL of us are leaving the country for different reasons.

So I can say that I know what it means that skilled workers are leaving first hand. Now I reverse the question, why would we stay? Spain has some great things, such as weather, food and party, but it's horrible in any tech-related industry.

For instance, I did a couple of internships to help with my University credits and earn some money. I got paid per month almost the same that I'm getting paid now every couple of days working as an US contractor. Not only that, now I'm doing things that I really love, challenging but rewarding, collaborating with the best people I know and living wherever I want. We made https://www.angularattack.com/ , now we're launching a new one way better (not yet public though) and I'm helping doing two websites for two of the biggest Venture Capital firms in USA.

Now tell me, why should I go back to working 9-5 for some company that doesn't care at all about developers and treat us as code monkeys, for peanuts and in horrible conditions? I had a horrible chair for example but there was "no budget" for a better one.

It's a pity because the country gets worse, but it's also good since the hard working Spaniards get the best -- even if it has to be outside. I am lucky I can visit my sister in UK and my friends in Japan, Sweden, Germany and USA :)

[1] http://makersupv.com/

[2] https://orchallenge.es/

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#137

Post by cageface » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 3:22 AM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #62

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

> Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. I don't think the 10x programmer is a valid concept. If a company believes they can easily replace you for that price, then chances are you aren't working on anything that that makes you irreplaceable. Why should an employer pay you more for the same amount of work? I also have reservations about looking at work as "an intimate family-like rela…

I don't think there is such a thing as a 10x programmer if we're just talking about implementation. Where there is easily a 10x factor or more is making the right architectural decisions up front. An experienced dev can avoid making mistakes that can doom a project right out of the gate.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#138

Post by imaginenore » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 3:23 AM UTC

franciscop wrote: post #136

Spanish dev here. I created with some friends the most active Maker group in Spain [1]. We won contests like Hyperloop's, NASA's SpaceApps (once winners, twice finalists), making robot competitions [2], teaching to everyone, etc. A couple of days ago we were talking about who would continue it, since ALL of us are leaving the country for different reasons. So I can say that I know what it means that skilled workers a…

Same shit in Italy and the Netherlands. I get with very low offers, recruiters are shocked that I bill $100-150 per hour.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#139

Post by franciscop » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 3:29 AM UTC

imaginenore wrote: post #138

franciscop wrote: post #136

Spanish dev here. I created with some friends the most active Maker group in Spain [1]. We won contests like Hyperloop's, NASA's SpaceApps (once winners, twice finalists), making robot competitions [2], teaching to everyone, etc. A couple of days ago we were talking about who would continue it, since ALL of us are leaving the country for different reasons. So I can say that I know what it means that skilled workers a…

Same shit in Italy and the Netherlands. I get with very low offers, recruiters are shocked that I bill $100-150 per hour.

Actually I think that my experience in Spain has set me back as I asked for way lower compensation than I realize now that I could be earning as it just seemed crazy. I remember when they asked me about "what is your hourly rate?" the first time, I said a number while shaking as it was beyond my dreams and now I realize it's totally pennies compared to the money they are probably making out of my work. Now I know for the future though (:

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#140

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 3:35 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #68

muse900 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that salary excessive tbh. I understand working remotely for a US company and get a US based salary, truth is that the companies that will do that are mostly startups and I don't think they have the funds for high end salaries. Except if you are a genius dev and they do need you and you go off and tell them that you want to work from home and live in another Country. I do think though you can get jobs that pay…

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

In Portugal you hardly get more than 1500€ after taxes, unless you are very very lucky.