Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

yahoo.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 101 posts

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#71

Post by enkitosh »

I'm really surprised how many people in the comment section of this article defend the facist acts of this company. As if controlling how you dress is not a big deal, it's actually a very big deal. "Welcome to the real world kid", indicating this is somewhat a childish behaviour. Well if this is the real world it needs to be told that this is not acceptable.

So I'm a programmer and a transvestite meaning that yes I like to wear what is considered to be women's clothing. Basically I just like to wear whatever I like and makes me feel comfortable whether it was designed to be used by men or women. Most days I'm lazy in the morning so I put on very casual clothing but I decided that every Monday I would wear something extreme so I wear dresses, colourful skirts, stockings, whatever. I wanted to do this because of two reasons. First off Mondays can be very grey and boring. People return from their weekend holiday and generally feel a bit depressed having to start this weekly routine again. The other reason and the most important one is that we are to be accepted whatever we choose to wear. If a person cannot accept what I wear it's really their problem not mine. The company I work for is very flexible and open minded about these sort of things but if anyone would tell me to stop doing this I would quit immediately, no questions asked.

The company that you work for does not own you. Your boss is not your parent why should he/she get to limit your freedom of expression by telling you what to wear? Especially if you do not have to deal with customers (of course I understand that companies can have rules when their employees are facing customers that's a totally different story).

I don't know how your jobs are but I feel in mine I generally contribute a lot of time, effort and talent to it. A progress made in something I contribute to does not just happen because the company planned it. I can accept that I stay on the same wages while people higher in the hierarchy benefit greatly from something I achieved. That's just how companies work and I get paid well, I'm not complaining. However I will never accept someone trying to have affect on my appearance, not even as an intern. Sure interns have to prove that they are fit for the job but that goes for the work they provide, has nothing to do with what they wear.

And this has nothing to do with millennials or how they are self entitled. This is about basic human rights of all generations. Companies get 9 hours of our daily lives they shouldn't also get to choose what's in our wardrobe.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#72

Post by ohnomrbill »

I would fire them too, with these reasons:

1. The interns saw a dress code violation and escalated immediately, without informing the out-of-line employee.

From the original blog post [0]:

"I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.

I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it."

I'm certain the interns did not ask this coworker why they came in wearing non-standard shoes, because management had to tell them about the disability after the fact. Going directly to management to censure a coworker without discussing the issue with the coworker is sometimes justified. Minor dress code violations are not an instance where that behavior is justified. If this isn't apparent to the interns, that raises questions about their judgment.

2. The interns persisted in making it an issue after the first rejection.

Again, there are some workplace situations where it is appropriate to keep raising an issue after your first proposal is rejected. Minor dress code violations are not one of those situations. Again, from the blog post:

"I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code."

The proposal which led to their termination was not the first discussion of the issue. They asked, management considered their request and came to a decision. They then took more time (presumably out of the workday, though this is not clear) to write a petition restating the request. Continuing to focus on a very minor issue at the expense of more important things is another strike against their judgment.

3. The interns asked for much more leeway than the original infraction.

The coworker who inspired their petition wore non-standard shoes, hardly a large violation of the dress code. In response, "[The interns] requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code."

Seeing one employee wearing non-standard shoes is not an endorsement of a less-stringent dress code by management. It is odd that they take the dress code so seriously, yet take the example of one employee not wearing leather shoes as a sign that the dress code can be relaxed to exclude suits. That hypocrisy on the part of the interns is at least as bad as any perceived hypocrisy on the part of management.

All of these lapses in judgment are bad enough to warrant censure. If an employee did this, counseling would be in order. But interns are explicitly not full-time, salaried employees - it is a trial run. (I don't take Alison Green's view that they are guests, but they aren't full employees either.) If the company's goal in having internships is to evaluate potential employees, then a lapse in judgment like this might mean that the company's interest is to let them go before the official end date.

[0] http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-inter...

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#73

Post by specialist »

jrowley wrote: post #6

I got a job recently that requires business formal dress code. It's was a little frustrating until I read somewhere that by wearing dress clothes your are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company and in that way I appreciated it because it allows me to partition my identity into work and nonwork. Part of me still thinks I'd be more productive and happier in my normal street clothes though.

Dress codes are mandated uniforms. Why should I pay to wear my company's uniform?

If company wants me to dress a certain way, they can pay. Either buy the clothes or pay me more.

Otherwise its just shifting their expenses on to their own employees (and interns).

I've been working on a new model for employer / employee relations appropriate for the 3rd millennium that I'd like to share here:

  Employers pay employees, not the reverse.
Feedback welcome.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#74

Post by raverbashing »

daly wrote: post #63

Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s. Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got "written up" (a very bad thing). In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric Typewriters wore suits. Their sho…

> Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter.

Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business

But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse professionals.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#75

Post by daly »

raverbashing wrote: post #74
daly wrote: post #63

Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s. Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got "written up" (a very bad thing). In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric Typewriters wore suits. Their sho…

> Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse professionals.

I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days (try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses.

You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans to work".

It looks to me that you've just solved both of my problems.

A few less employees who fail to focus on improving the business will help me reduce expenses and make payroll. It also gives me some spare cash to buy better quality coffee. Both problems solved by self-selection.

People seem to think that "being a good culture fit" is a new idea. But IBM used to "write up" employees who failed the dress code as "not a good culture fit". If the company wants polo shirts, wear polo shirts. If the company wants suits, wear suits.

Running a company is hard. Your suppliers demand immediate payment. Your retailers demand volume discounts. Your sales people want "promotion specials". Your landlord wants more money. Your employees demand "competitive wages". Your competition announced a new product. Your major customer threatened to quit.... And YOU want to argue about dress code? Will all those who don't focus on improving the business please step forward.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#76

Post by raverbashing »

daly wrote: post #75
raverbashing wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse professionals.

I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days (try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses. You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans to work". It looks to me that you've just…

You are right about culture fit.

And yes, running a company is hard.

If you're so strapped of cash why are you wasting money enforcing a dress code (unless necessary)? Will that increase revenue or cut cost?

> And YOU want to argue about dress code?

I would probably be fuming as well if I got a complaint unrelated to the core business. But guess what, your employees are not robots. Sure, it's not inhumane to demand a dress code or the fact that the free coffee sucks. But it will make them think twice if another opportunity shows up and the first to move are usually the ones with more skills.

Do you know who was fired for being a poor culture fit? John Lasseter

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#77

Post by daly »

raverbashing wrote: post #76
daly wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days (try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses. You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans to work". It looks to me that you've just…

You are right about culture fit. And yes, running a company is hard. If you're so strapped of cash why are you wasting money enforcing a dress code (unless necessary)? Will that increase revenue or cut cost? > And YOU want to argue about dress code? I would probably be fuming as well if I got a complaint unrelated to the core business. But guess what, your employees are not robots. Sure, it's not inhumane to demand a…

IBM enforced a dress code as part of the company image of quality. Quality wasn't just a word, it was a culture. IBM's management had to go to "manager's school" and were sought after because everyone knew IBM invested time and money to train their managers and their employees. IBM's reputation for quality was so good people USED to say "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

IBM "enforced" a lot of things beyond dress code. I got called on the carpet for answering a question at a conference because I was not an IBM official spokesperson. Everything (including dress) about the company mattered.

If you want a company image then dress code matters. FedEx people who drive trucks still wear uniforms. Airline pilots wear uniforms. Losing the company image loses a reason to work for the company. IBM today is run by people who forgot that. It seems to me that IBM will go out of business shortly based on that loss of "cachet".

IBM repair people wearing suits sent the message that IBM CARED about business, about perception, about quality. It showed they pay attention to their front-line workforce. It transmits the idea that this person is well-trained, not picked out of a lineup. IBM invested in that training (something most companies don't do anymore).

IBM people never complained that they felt like robots. They were universally proud to work for the company. IBM didn't fire, they retrained. (Not anymore, though. And you can see it on the IBM postings.) IBM people cared about quality. If something was wrong they worked to make it right and they were backed by management, even if it really wasn't IBM's fault. Robots, no. Workers who were proud of and cared for the company, yes.

Few companies seem to train employees, seem to care about quality, seem to care about a dress code as a corporate image. Starbucks seems to be "the new IBM" on those terms. They only recently allowed "visible tattoos".

I have "skills". The only thing that will make me want to move is a more "interesting" problem. If you show up with an interesting problem I'll wear Saran Wrap or anything else you want to work, dress code be damned.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#79

Post by raverbashing »

daly wrote: post #77
raverbashing wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about culture fit. And yes, running a company is hard. If you're so strapped of cash why are you wasting money enforcing a dress code (unless necessary)? Will that increase revenue or cut cost? > And YOU want to argue about dress code? I would probably be fuming as well if I got a complaint unrelated to the core business. But guess what, your employees are not robots. Sure, it's not inhumane to demand a…

IBM enforced a dress code as part of the company image of quality. Quality wasn't just a word, it was a culture. IBM's management had to go to "manager's school" and were sought after because everyone knew IBM invested time and money to train their managers and their employees. IBM's reputation for quality was so good people USED to say "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM". IBM "enforced" a lot of things beyond dre…

Good comment

> IBM people never complained that they felt like robots.

I think this is a mix of the cultural context of that era (where people dressed more formally) and the other items you mentioned, especially the dress code being part of their image

But then IBM got "old", other companies did other interesting things and stopped caring for formality and that's where we are today

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#80

Post by openmosix »

daly wrote: post #75
raverbashing wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse professionals.

I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days (try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses. You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans to work". It looks to me that you've just…

This, a thousand times. Thank you.
Post reply on HN