Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#61

Post by throwanem » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #53

cddotdotslash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request. I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never even conceived the idea of doing somethin…

If we are going to throw out blame, what about the generation that feel entitled to treat interns like dirts, just because they can? If a company has a rule which does not benefit the company and is only there to humiliate interns, what is the moral argument for it?

Being required to maintain a professional dress code by you is "treated like dirt"? Good Lord.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#62

Post by droopybuns » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

hk__2 wrote: post #13

jessriedel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishment completely aside, as an employer I'd simply want nothing to do with these intern in the future. Protesting something like this is a good signal of their attitude/perspective.

> Protesting something like this is a good signal of their attitude/perspective. Why? They saw something they didn’t like and wrote a letter suggesting an alternative. I see that as a very good attitude.

Leaders inspire.

Many people grow up believing that protesting is the same thing. But at its foundation, it is resisting leadership direction.

Managers are people too- and at some point you have to cut your losses if you lose hope that you will be able to inspire your employees.

The managers know they are asking extra from the staff with dress codes in this day and age. It doesn't happen naturally, so they write policy. They expect to deal with resistance, and sometimes they are seeking out policy resistors for promotions. But a mass uprising is a huge fiasco to deal with.

You are missing the crux of the problem when you say they wrote a letter suggesting an alternative. They drafted a petition against leadership direction and had almost everyone sign it. That is a protest.

It is a serious problem for management and it requires action: capitulate to airhead interns who won't be here next year or cancel the program?

These kids should have known this, but like many young people, they had an opportunity to learn a lesson the hard way.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#63

Post by daly » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s. Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got "written up" (a very bad thing).

In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric Typewriters wore suits. Their shoes were so well shined you could see your face in them.

These days I work from home. Sometimes I walk the hall to the cafeteria (the kitchen) without my suit jacket. I expect to be written up sometime soon.

Here's a clue a very senior manager (Ralph Gomory, IBM Research Division President) once gave me...

Managers make decisions. Only go to management with your need for a decision and always present the options.

They went to management with what was, in essence, a complaint. Worse, it was a complaint that had nothing to do with the business. Clearly they were not keeping the business uppermost in their priority queue. So management made a business decision and fixed the problem.

We had a "mass revolt" among the systems programmers across all of the IBM internal sites. We would only get "upgraded processors" after the customer returned an old one. We were working on trailing edge equipment. Unfortunately our internal memos (the "Tandem Memos") got leaked to Computer World (the big newspaper of the day). I got called "on the carpet" by senior management. I expected to be fired.

Fortunately IBM Corporate management saw that we were complaining about the business, not about personal issues. They changed the policy and we got leading edge equipment.

Mass protests sometimes work but they need to focus on improving the business. Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#64

Post by analog31 » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

Anecdote: When I was an intern in the 80s, at a large mainframe computer facility, there was no dress code. But at that time, there was a widespread rumor that people who dressed better, were treated better. I got a couple pairs of polyester pants and some button down shirts at a discount store. The other interns wore jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers.

Sure enough, I was treated better. While the other interns were crawling around pulling cables, I got to sit at a desk and program a computer.

Wearing business attire also got me better treatment when I needed it, such as dealing with some bureaucracy, or even retailers.

I'd be interested in knowing if this was still the case. If it's important enough to be fired for, I'd spend a few more bucks and dress nicer, as an investment, especially around performance review time.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#65

Post by smcameron » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:16 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #49

jrowley wrote: post #6

I got a job recently that requires business formal dress code. It's was a little frustrating until I read somewhere that by wearing dress clothes your are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company and in that way I appreciated it because it allows me to partition my identity into work and nonwork. Part of me still thinks I'd be more productive and happier in my normal street clothes though.

by wearing dress clothes your are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company Kind of like the Scouts, or priests, or soldiers? That's a good theory. All these groups do proper onboarding, though. You'd ask yourself what happened to the manager who let that batch of interns run loose. If it's East Coast finance you'd think he'd be up for culling next, in that line of work there is much indoctrination and e…

> branded by the company

Or, like cattle.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#66

Post by cddotdotslash » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #53

cddotdotslash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request. I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never even conceived the idea of doing somethin…

If we are going to throw out blame, what about the generation that feel entitled to treat interns like dirts, just because they can? If a company has a rule which does not benefit the company and is only there to humiliate interns, what is the moral argument for it?

Being asked to wear business clothes is "being treated like dirt?" I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or perhaps I'm missing something.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#67

Post by cddotdotslash » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:40 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #41

cddotdotslash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request. I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never even conceived the idea of doing somethin…

> demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience Oh what a load of crap Generous? Companies use interns for cheap labour (sometimes free). There's nothing generous from their part

Perhaps you interned at the wrong places, but every internship I've had not only paid me well, but also taught me more real-world skills than I learned during my four-year degree. The world is not black and white; just because some companies use interns as cheap labor doesn't mean that's always the case.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#68

Post by empthought » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:43 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #33

empthought wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual polite requests would likely have been denied without the firing. However, the group participated in collective action, which many employers simply cannot tolerate, whether it's about dress codes, compensation, working conditions, or anything else.

> which many employers simply cannot tolerate They certainly can, they just don't want to.

No, in the long run they can't, because if they do the very concept of "employer" falls to anarchosyndicalism.

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#69

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:43 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #33

empthought wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual polite requests would likely have been denied without the firing. However, the group participated in collective action, which many employers simply cannot tolerate, whether it's about dress codes, compensation, working conditions, or anything else.

> which many employers simply cannot tolerate They certainly can, they just don't want to.

[deleted]

Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

#70

Post by raverbashing » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 2:43 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #50

raverbashing wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience Oh what a load of crap Generous? Companies use interns for cheap labour (sometimes free). There's nothing generous from their part

And, conversely, interns' labor has minimal value (sometimes none), so it's not as though the pay scale's unfair. You don't sign up for the college + internship track without expecting to give away some labor.

> interns' labor has minimal value (sometimes none)

I find it very hard to believe they are doing nothing of value whatsoever. Really hard

Not paying interns seems to be a USA thing though.

As an intern I worked with C software, both in Linux and Windows, of course I had less experience and needed "more" supervision, but it was far from worthless. My code ended up in actual products sold by the company. And yes, I was paid for it.

See how much Google pays their interns.