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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#161

Post by ido »

charlesdm wrote: post #105
scribu wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. Playing devil's advocate: If we limit the discussion to pure tech companies that target a global market, then yes, it is that simple. But there is a vast majority of companies that do not belong to that category, yet require software developers. I'm thinking primarily of Spanish software agencies that have other Spanish companies as clien…

There's often still significant leeway. I'm based in Belgium - most senior developers probably make between €3-4000/mo (before tax) here. That's for guys in their mid 30s, early 40s. So a bit better than Spain. My cousin's husband owns a small agency (15-20 people) and sells one developer at €2.000 a day on €500k-1m projects. I think on average they're billed out around 150 days a year, so grossing around €300k per d…

I'm surprised Belgium isn't better paid, even in Berlin you'd earn better than that (aside from maybe game-dev) and in western Germany you'll earn better than in Berlin.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#162

Post by Raticide »

UVB-76 wrote: post #42
macspoofing wrote: post #22

This was a frustrating article to read. I got the sense the author missed something. Spain is part of the EU common market which numbers 500 million people - how is it that this is only a problem for Spain, and why can't they recruit fellow EU citizens to make-up the shortfall?

Few thoughts off the top of my head: a) Language barrier — Spanish is only the fifth most spoken language in the EU, with only 15% speaking it as a first or second language (around half of whom are Spanish citizens); b) Lower salaries on offer (as others have noted) as opposed to working in the UK, Germany, or France; b) Given the economic situation in the country, and high levels of unemployment, Spain isn't anywher…

Well, at least they won't have to compete with the UK soon.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#163

Post by pcrh »

duckingtest wrote: post #131
charlesdm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Just compare salaries of software engineers in most EU countries with salaries in the US. If you're a good developer, 99% of the time it's better to work remotely from Europe for a US company. It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. They're probably the same people who think you need 1…

I don't think it's that developers are underpaid in Europe. They are just objectively less productive there. After all it's a very specialized job that requires modern, developed economy open to disruptions to be really productive. On the extreme opposite end of a spectrum - a pre-industrial economy - a developer's productivity would be zero. American nominal GDP per capita is 2.13 times that of Spain's and 1.38x tha…

GDP per capita seems to be a curious way to estimate if a local dev is likely to be productive. Would a Luxembourgish, Swiss or Norwegian dev be expected to be more productive than one from the US or UK?

It seems to me that the prime determinant of pay is how close the worker's "category" is to the money. So in a start-up intensive environment like the Bay Area, the devs are also sometimes the executives, and executives are often former devs, so devs get paid correspondingly.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#165

Post by AndyNemmity »

fchollet wrote: post #84
jules wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the cost of living in Paris less than a normal US city?

Paris is much less expensive than the bay area, but more expensive than the average US city. In fact, it's barely less expensive than NYC, one of the most expensive US cities. Also, if you are working remotely you cannot command a bay area salary.

You can command a bay area salary. There are a lot of companies out there who cannot find skills because everyone is in the bay area, and want to work at the coolest company possible.

There are a lot of uncool companies who need those same skills, and will pay to get them.

Hell, they pay consultants far more to fly in and do the work if they can't find someone remotely.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#166

Post by yummyfajitas »

anjc wrote: post #33

Same thing is happening in every country, it seems. Spanish companies have the entire EU from which they can draw workers without any paperwork or issues, and yet they can't find any? From central/eastern Europe even, whose workers may have lower wage expectations? No. They're flagging this "shortage" and will simultaneously petition their government to allow faster issuing of/more visas to non-EU countries, i.e. Ind…

It's entertaining to see a comment simultaneously criticizing people for NOT hiring Euros, yet being willing to hire Indians.

Draw your arbitrary tribal boundaries at the exact same place I do!

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#167

Post by pjmlp »

hospes wrote: post #156
pjmlp wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Portugal you hardly get more than 1500€ after taxes, unless you are very very lucky.

€1500 a month is €18K a year, I believe Portugal has about 28% income tax for €7-20K income bracket (which seems very high), so it is roughly about €25K before taxes. And you are saying this is a good as it gets for Software Engineers. I was looking up real estate prices in Lisbon and they seemed pretty high. Per my understanding a lot of people from EU (and some outside of EU) are buying real estate in Portugal and…

We do lease for everything, TV, computer, car, house, vacation, you name it.

Before the crisis you could get full credits, with 0% entry on your side.

It is also quite common to live with the parents and only leave when you eventually marry, with one salary being used to pay the bank and other running costs.

Or you get to buy a little piece of land with an house that gets built with lot of shortcuts along the years.

Not sure what the best websites are, as I am living abroad, however many local agencies lack Internet presence. The best sources are ads on local newspapers or word of mouth.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#168

Post by AndyNemmity »

emilburzo wrote: post #154
smsm42 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of US companies hiring remotely. Two reasons: 1) costs (you're not competing with Google and Facebook on salary, at least not directly) and somewhat related 2) bigger applicant pool. This is especially true if you're looking for specific skills - much easier to find somebody if you're looking at 10x market. For many developer positions, having a person in the office is not much better than having remote…

Where does one find these companies? Almost all remote job posts that I find end with "(US only)" Example: https://hnjobs.emilburzo.com/#remote%20%22us%20only%22

Usually people get the job while in the US, become well liked and needed, then move where ever they damn well please.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#169

Post by lostlogin »

Daishiman wrote: post #3

I'm wondering what is the cognitive dissonance with employers who are unwilling to train workers. I mean, I understand the reasons if you're a an SMB, but large corporations used to train their employees or hold something close to apprenticeship programs. I'm guessing this is more along the lines of "we want qualified work but we're not really willing to pay for it"?

Here in New Zealand you hear employers complain that New Zealanders don't want to work and that they have to get staff in from the islands etc etc. What this actually means is that they can't find any local willing to work 12 hours a day for minimum wage. The amazing unwillingness to see what they are doing is very impressive to witness - asking if they have considered paying more generates the filthiest of looks.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#170

Post by AndyNemmity »

duckingtest wrote: post #131
charlesdm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Just compare salaries of software engineers in most EU countries with salaries in the US. If you're a good developer, 99% of the time it's better to work remotely from Europe for a US company. It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. They're probably the same people who think you need 1…

I don't think it's that developers are underpaid in Europe. They are just objectively less productive there. After all it's a very specialized job that requires modern, developed economy open to disruptions to be really productive. On the extreme opposite end of a spectrum - a pre-industrial economy - a developer's productivity would be zero. American nominal GDP per capita is 2.13 times that of Spain's and 1.38x tha…

I have worked for a global company for 10 years, and that is false in my view.

Europeans do get paid very, very well, and they are equally as productive as Americans.

It's about the individual, and not much else.

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