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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#41

Post by Jare »

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Leaving aside the validity of the 10x programmer concept, the company still needs to be able to extract that extra performance in actual value. Most software jobs in Spain don't have productivity of that kind. Almost no companies here develop software products or services whose effectiveness translates directly into revenue. Very few of those who have tried have had any sort of long-term success.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#42

Post by UVB-76 »

macspoofing wrote: post #22

This was a frustrating article to read. I got the sense the author missed something. Spain is part of the EU common market which numbers 500 million people - how is it that this is only a problem for Spain, and why can't they recruit fellow EU citizens to make-up the shortfall?

Few thoughts off the top of my head:

a) Language barrier — Spanish is only the fifth most spoken language in the EU, with only 15% speaking it as a first or second language (around half of whom are Spanish citizens);

b) Lower salaries on offer (as others have noted) as opposed to working in the UK, Germany, or France;

b) Given the economic situation in the country, and high levels of unemployment, Spain isn't anywhere near as attractive to skilled migrants as the other leading EU economies.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#43

Post by dguaraglia »

hueving wrote: post #25
droopyEyelids wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say "70% less"? Sorry to pick on you, but I see this usage everywhere and I'm curious. Doesn't "Pays 30% of what I make" convey what you mean much more effectively?

Apparently not or the poster would have used that convention.

I think it might have to do with the poster's mother tongue. As a Spanish-speaker I'd tend to say "pagarían 20% menos" (which roughly translates to "they'd pay 20% less".

Some idioms are very difficult to get rid off. I sometimes can distinguish Brazilians from Argentines just by the way they write in English.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#44

Post by kowdermeister »

zeveb wrote: post #6
Daishiman wrote: post #3

I'm wondering what is the cognitive dissonance with employers who are unwilling to train workers. I mean, I understand the reasons if you're a an SMB, but large corporations used to train their employees or hold something close to apprenticeship programs. I'm guessing this is more along the lines of "we want qualified work but we're not really willing to pay for it"?

> I'm wondering what is the cognitive dissonance with employers who are unwilling to train workers. I mean, I understand the reasons if you're a an SMB, but large corporations used to train their employees or hold something close to apprenticeship programs. It was far less common for people to change jobs back then, too. Neither employers nor employees feel any real loyalty towards one another, so investing in one an…

> There's nothing to incentivise someone to stay once he's learnt the skills he needs to get a position elsewhere.

So it's better if they remain low skill and they stay. Great value for the company's product / services.

http://www.iqpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/8-Hirin...

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#45

Post by mathattack »

I've seen software projects where this was a big issue. Many ambitious Spaniards wind up working in London or elsewhere. Then Spanish companies have to hire overpriced consultancies to fill local tech positions with underqualified resources.

I wonder how much the Brexit will send folks home.

My impression is that many companies are looking at Spain as alternatives to London HQs, but those are also the kind of jobs for elites, rather than the 5M unemployed. Very hard to convert housing builders into programmers.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#46

Post by merqurio »

mooreds wrote: post #35

Wonder if it has anything to do with low salaries? Just as an example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12017439 has a pretty low salary for the skills they want.

I don't think so.. Most of my friends left Spain looking for better long term opportunities rather than money. Even if our economy (and politicians) sucks, quality of life is pretty high with those salaries.

I think the problem is the polarisation in the population. Very well trained people is leaving the country while non-skilled people remain.

Skilled people do not trust the system therefore they leave as soon as they can.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#47

Post by UVB-76 »

anjc wrote: post #33

Same thing is happening in every country, it seems. Spanish companies have the entire EU from which they can draw workers without any paperwork or issues, and yet they can't find any? From central/eastern Europe even, whose workers may have lower wage expectations? No. They're flagging this "shortage" and will simultaneously petition their government to allow faster issuing of/more visas to non-EU countries, i.e. Ind…

How many people from Eastern Europe speak Spanish?

Obviously not as important for low-skilled, manual labour, but we're talking about highly skilled jobs in the tech sector here.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#48

Post by cocotino »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #5

The article says the average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at twice that, it's not hard to see why developers are not working for (or maybe even in) Spain. I suspect the problem has more to do with Spanish businesses not being willing or able to compete for developers with market salary rates. It's frustrating that they don't provide data like that in articles like this. Instead of they a single data point ane…

I still remember when Tuenti opened and they started paying developers a normal developer salary (instead of the insanely low standard stuff here) and eeeeevery dev business here was mad as fuck about that. They understood it as if Tuenti were stealing developers from them, paying the unpayable for men

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#49

Post by vemv »

charlesdm wrote: post #32
vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Have you considered working remotely for a US company? I know a guy making €7 or 8,000 per month, after tax, living in Paris. Best of both worlds: amazing quality of living, cheap cost of living + healthcare, lots of spending (or investing) money! Seems to be working well for him.

Thanks for the reminder! Of course from time to time I consider the possibility. There's no particular reason why I don't give it a shot, other than the global competition for US remote gigs.

Probably it's easier when you specialise in a niche language - which I'm doing lately!

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#50

Post by joe_the_user »

altoz wrote: post #8

You have two groups: 1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers The employers complaining about people in group 2 being scarce are merely not paying enough. The workers complaining in group 1 need more skills that the market wants. They're at different ends of the spectrum. Other than that they live in the same country, they really don't have much to do with each other. Whether you can convert…

1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers

"If there was excess of people in group 2, then there'd be no upward pressure on wages, in the fashion that there is none in group 1. If we import or train enough of group 2, perhaps we can make this happen..."

Basically, the message for each group - "we want to pay less".

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