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Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

theverge.com

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Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#61

Post by malka »

seizethecheese wrote: post #28
burnguy123 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, the autopilot can only be used on highways. I would suspect that highway travel is much safer per mile in the first place. Are we comparing highway driving with autopilot to regular mixed city/highway driving?

Highways are the most dangerous environment. High speed combined with cross traffic. City streets don't have enough speed usually for crashes be lethal.

what ? highways in the US have cross traffic ? In my country, the ABSENCE of such traffic is almost the definition for highways.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#62

Post by semi-extrinsic »

cynix wrote: post #54
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen a 2016 Mercedes E-class? It has autonomous systems on essentially the same level as a Tesla, just without the flashy "Autopilot" branding. The new S-class coming out next year is going to have a lot more autonomous features on top of that, including Lidar (which Tesla lacks).

> on essentially the same level as a Tesla Actually, it appears to be nowhere near the level of a Tesla. http://mashable.com/2016/06/16/2017-mercedes-benz-e-class-fi...

From the article you linked:

> Turns out, the 2017 E-Class is just playing coy when it comes to self-driving capabilities. It is the first production car to receive an autonomous driving license in Nevada.

So the technical system (hardware+software) is as good as or better than a Model S, but Mercedes believe it is irresponsible to call that Autopilot and pretend like the car is fully autonomous, so they've put in restrictions like requiring some tiny driver input once every 60 seconds so it knows you're paying attention.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#63

Post by bennettfeely »

cynix wrote: post #60
steve19 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are users running Autopilot during hazardous conditions such as heavy rain and snow? If not, comparing auto pilot deaths with average deaths per mile is disingenuous.

Yes. Apparently Autopilot sees lane markings better than humans in heavy rain.

And snow and ice?

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#64

Post by ferrisford »

malka wrote: post #61
seizethecheese wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highways are the most dangerous environment. High speed combined with cross traffic. City streets don't have enough speed usually for crashes be lethal.

what ? highways in the US have cross traffic ? In my country, the ABSENCE of such traffic is almost the definition for highways.

It's common to use the term 'freeway' or 'Interstate' (meaning Interstate Highway/Freeway) to refer to controlled access highways in the US.

There's lots of highways in the US that are just 2 lanes, one in each direction, with a speed limit of 55mph and cross traffic from smaller roads that should stop first before turning on the highway in either direction. These are what we usually mean with the word 'highway'.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#65

Post by arprocter »

massysett wrote: post #58
at-fates-hands wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is going to be a major morality issue with self driving cars. What if a deer crosses the road? Will the car hit the deer to save the life of the driver? Avoid the deer to avoid an accident? Or save the deer and run into the ditch, possibly harming the driver? Unfortunately, this technology is not capable of making those decisions and if ultimately the driver is responsible, then maybe we should just keep it that…

"Or save the deer and run into the ditch, possibly harming the driver?" This is not even a slight morality issue. The person is more important than the deer. "Unfortunately, this technology is not capable of making those decisions" Of course it is. Program the machine so that its primary concern is protection of human life. Which should be its secondary concern (protection of property or protection of deer) is a more…

Replace 'deer' with 'child' and there's suddenly more of a quandary

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#66

Post by tim333 »

gshulegaard wrote: post #43
saulrh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The system also makes frequent checks to ensure that the driver's hands remain on the wheel and provides visual and audible alerts if hands-on is not detected. It then gradually slows down the car until hands-on is detected again I don't care much about the user agreement, but this should mean that the driver had their hands on the wheel when this happened. Does we know if it requires both hands on the wheel, or ca…

Seeing as I have seen videos of drivers sleeping in traffic with autopilot engaged, I imagine there may be a way to evade/circumvent this check entirely. So your question is sound, and I don't know the answer...but saying "A distracted driver ran into a truck trailer" is less catchy.

It seems the drive was watching Harry Potter on a video player. Not sure if he was touching the steering wheel. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/tesla-autopilot-c...

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#67

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

gshulegaard wrote: post #31
NeutronBoy wrote: post #14

> In the blog post, Tesla reiterates that customers are required to agree that the system is in a "public beta phase" before they can use it I absolutely disagree with this, and it should not be used as a 'get out' clause from Tesla. If you work with non-technical people on technical issues on a day to day basis you'll understand why - non-technical people literally don't understand what stuff like this means. They'l…

Beware clickbait and intentional inflammatory posturing. I noticed The Verge selectively quoted Tesla without directly linking to the source (although it was part of Elon's tweet): https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss The full context of the agreement: "It is important to note that Tesla disables Autopilot by default and requires explicit acknowledgement that the system is new technology and still in a public…

Imagine Carmaker X has a secret switch on their cars that a driver may pull to completely disable their breaks. The switch has no utility, eg it's not there for use by service technicians. It's only there so you can see how far you can go while driving without breaks.

Would it make any difference if the switch came with a big angry red sticker saying "DON'T PULL THIS SWITCH UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING"?

It's a setting that can get you killed. There's no other reason to have it other than to risk getting killed (presumably because some people enjoy this kind of thing). Warning or no warning makes no difference at all. There's no justification for having a thing like that on anyone's car.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#68

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

dogma1138 wrote: post #46
NeutronBoy wrote: post #14

> In the blog post, Tesla reiterates that customers are required to agree that the system is in a "public beta phase" before they can use it I absolutely disagree with this, and it should not be used as a 'get out' clause from Tesla. If you work with non-technical people on technical issues on a day to day basis you'll understand why - non-technical people literally don't understand what stuff like this means. They'l…

They can put anything they want in the EULA it doesn't means it would stand up scrutiny in the court of law. Autopilot features are in a grey area now since they are very new but Tesla is still responsible regardless of what they claim to be. Seatbelts and Airbags were also in "beta phase" at some point, and more likely than not some people got killed by a deploying airbag in it's early days or by a seatbelt with a s…

Seatbelts and airbags are safety features designed to protect you during an accident, as in given an accident has already happened.

"Autopilot" is a system that takes control of the car away from the driver. As such there's no comparison to safety features and in fact it's rather the opposite: it's a system that makes driving a lot more dangerous than it normally is.

(Unless the system is much better at driving than the human driver, which it most definitely is not).

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#69

Post by [deleted] »

cylinder wrote: post #17
nathanaldensr wrote: post #4

I wonder what the driver was doing when the vehicle crashed. Tesla says that the driver is ultimately responsible for controlling the vehicle but then provides a system that is likely result in the driver not paying attention--sleeping, reading, or otherwise being distracted. How can Tesla and the governments that license drivers resolve this situation?

Probably looking down at phone or the like. I don't buy that any sky would prevent an attentive driver from seeing a big rig perpendicular to them. I've had doubts about autopilot after it was hastily released and I've seen some unnerving anecdotes on Tesla groups about it. I think Tesla needs to keep Elon in check a bit more...

[deleted]

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#70

Post by wldcordeiro »

tfinniga wrote: post #27
wldcordeiro wrote: post #5

So if I read it right the trailer merged from a Lane next to the Tesla? So the trucker had the Tesla in a blind spot? The article is vague.

More information here: https://www.levyjournalonline.com/police-beat.html Relevant section: In a separate crash on May 7 at 3:40 p.m. on U.S. 27 near the BP Station west of Williston, a 45-year-old Ohio man was killed when he drove under the trailer of an 18-wheel semi. The top of Joshua Brown’s 2015 Tesla Model S vehicle was torn off by the force of the collision. The truck driver, Frank Baressi, 62, Tampa was not i…

Oh that was much better, the Verge one was sparse and the app I was using basically passed it through Readability so I had a hard time visualizing the accident. Thank you!
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