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Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

theverge.com

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Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#41

Post by saulrh »

gshulegaard wrote: post #31
NeutronBoy wrote: post #14

> In the blog post, Tesla reiterates that customers are required to agree that the system is in a "public beta phase" before they can use it I absolutely disagree with this, and it should not be used as a 'get out' clause from Tesla. If you work with non-technical people on technical issues on a day to day basis you'll understand why - non-technical people literally don't understand what stuff like this means. They'l…

Beware clickbait and intentional inflammatory posturing. I noticed The Verge selectively quoted Tesla without directly linking to the source (although it was part of Elon's tweet): https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss The full context of the agreement: "It is important to note that Tesla disables Autopilot by default and requires explicit acknowledgement that the system is new technology and still in a public…

> The system also makes frequent checks to ensure that the driver's hands remain on the wheel and provides visual and audible alerts if hands-on is not detected. It then gradually slows down the car until hands-on is detected again

I don't care much about the user agreement, but this should mean that the driver had their hands on the wheel when this happened. Does we know if it requires both hands on the wheel, or can you placate the car with one hand while you read reddit with the other?

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#42

Post by henrikschroder »

jayjay71 wrote: post #23
henrikschroder wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any concession means that the driver somehow isn't ultimately responsible, which is a situation noone wants to end up in. It's also ridiculous.

While I agree there is a huge danger with semi-autonomous systems as drivers become disengaged, Volvo has already publicly announced they will take full legal responsibility for any crashes when their cars are in autonomous mode.

...of which they have 0 on the market so far. Let's see how well that announcement holds up in the face of reality when they actually put cars on the market.

It's a vaporware promise.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#43

Post by gshulegaard »

saulrh wrote: post #41
gshulegaard wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beware clickbait and intentional inflammatory posturing. I noticed The Verge selectively quoted Tesla without directly linking to the source (although it was part of Elon's tweet): https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss The full context of the agreement: "It is important to note that Tesla disables Autopilot by default and requires explicit acknowledgement that the system is new technology and still in a public…

> The system also makes frequent checks to ensure that the driver's hands remain on the wheel and provides visual and audible alerts if hands-on is not detected. It then gradually slows down the car until hands-on is detected again I don't care much about the user agreement, but this should mean that the driver had their hands on the wheel when this happened. Does we know if it requires both hands on the wheel, or ca…

Seeing as I have seen videos of drivers sleeping in traffic with autopilot engaged, I imagine there may be a way to evade/circumvent this check entirely.

So your question is sound, and I don't know the answer...but saying "A distracted driver ran into a truck trailer" is less catchy.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#44

Post by icebraining »

johansch wrote: post #6

http://jalopnik.com/volvo-engineer-calls-out-tesla-for-dange...

All he's saying is that the Tesla system requires an attentive driver, which is something that Tesla themselves have stressed. It's just a PR piece.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#45

Post by Jemmeh »

tfinniga wrote: post #27
wldcordeiro wrote: post #5

So if I read it right the trailer merged from a Lane next to the Tesla? So the trucker had the Tesla in a blind spot? The article is vague.

More information here: https://www.levyjournalonline.com/police-beat.html Relevant section: In a separate crash on May 7 at 3:40 p.m. on U.S. 27 near the BP Station west of Williston, a 45-year-old Ohio man was killed when he drove under the trailer of an 18-wheel semi. The top of Joshua Brown’s 2015 Tesla Model S vehicle was torn off by the force of the collision. The truck driver, Frank Baressi, 62, Tampa was not i…

Thanks for the link to more info and the map! I drew on it to show the path in Paint.

http://imgur.com/gallery/aWDK0y9/new

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#46

Post by dogma1138 »

NeutronBoy wrote: post #14

> In the blog post, Tesla reiterates that customers are required to agree that the system is in a "public beta phase" before they can use it I absolutely disagree with this, and it should not be used as a 'get out' clause from Tesla. If you work with non-technical people on technical issues on a day to day basis you'll understand why - non-technical people literally don't understand what stuff like this means. They'l…

They can put anything they want in the EULA it doesn't means it would stand up scrutiny in the court of law.

Autopilot features are in a grey area now since they are very new but Tesla is still responsible regardless of what they claim to be.

Seatbelts and Airbags were also in "beta phase" at some point, and more likely than not some people got killed by a deploying airbag in it's early days or by a seatbelt with a shoddy release function before everything was standardized but you could still sue for compensation in those incidents as well.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#47

Post by semi-extrinsic »

henrikschroder wrote: post #40
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Mercedes and Volvo have publicly stated they are taking full responsibility for any accidents which occur during use of their semi-autonomous systems. Tesla needs to step up, or it will hurt their public image.

That's probably very easy to say before you have a product on the market. Let's see if they change their tune afterwards. I also wonder if that would encourage more risky behaviour from users or less.

Have you seen a 2016 Mercedes E-class? It has autonomous systems on essentially the same level as a Tesla, just without the flashy "Autopilot" branding. The new S-class coming out next year is going to have a lot more autonomous features on top of that, including Lidar (which Tesla lacks).

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#48

Post by sangnoir »

gshulegaard wrote: post #35
netinstructions wrote: post #13

Tesla's statement[1] provides some more details > What we know is that the vehicle was on a divided highway with Autopilot engaged when a tractor trailer drove across the highway perpendicular to the Model S. Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied. Failing to detect the white side of a tractor against a brightly lit sky i…

There was some discussion, but Tesla has a forward facing radar, but it is mounted lower than the camera and trailers of certain height have been shown to avoid it's detection window. So, speculatively, it is a double failure: 1) Trailer was high enough to avoid radar 2) Trailer was light enough/low contrast to avoid detection by the camera

Upside of working on "boring CRUD apps that won't change the world": your edge-cases won't result in fatalities.

I hope Tesla learns something from this, from the outside looking in - they appear to have a cavalier, can-do attitude (nothing wrong with the latter) towards safety engineering. Release beta self-driving software to production vehicles? Yeah, why not?

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#49

Post by techthroway443 »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #33
netinstructions wrote: post #13

Tesla's statement[1] provides some more details > What we know is that the vehicle was on a divided highway with Autopilot engaged when a tractor trailer drove across the highway perpendicular to the Model S. Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied. Failing to detect the white side of a tractor against a brightly lit sky i…

This is going to be a major morality issue with self driving cars. What if a deer crosses the road? Will the car hit the deer to save the life of the driver? Avoid the deer to avoid an accident? Or save the deer and run into the ditch, possibly harming the driver? Unfortunately, this technology is not capable of making those decisions and if ultimately the driver is responsible, then maybe we should just keep it that…

Rapidly apply brakes. Seems like the safest possible way to avoid the deer without causing injury to driver + possibly others.

Re: Tesla driver killed in crash with Autopilot active, NHTSA investigating

#50

Post by sangnoir »

luciusism wrote: post #39
joezydeco wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Tesla know the driver didn't see the trailer? He was killed in the crash. Is there a cockpit voice recorder?

Presumably because the brakes weren't engaged.

It is possible he was expecting the Model S to auto-brake as it normally does, and possibly realized when it was too late and panicked/tried to swerve. But I'm just speculating, I'm waiting to hear the outcome of the NHTSA investigation.
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