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Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

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Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#71

Post by stcredzero »

aresant wrote: post #63
stcredzero wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anything particularly Trump-esque about, "Work = being part of society?" Is your logic that anything Trump likes is automatically wrong? Or is that an entirely subjective appeal? My personal experience with periods of time where I was under-employed, is that "Work = being part of society." People feel better when they know they are actively contributing. That's just a simple truth.

I appreciate your response because I probably needed to qualify that. I am resolutely apolitical, but very much ADMIRE Trump's ability to state & capture - in a tweet - the underlying fears / motivations of voters. And, to get completely off topic, there's a lovely article quantifying Trump's approach - based on the gunning-fog index - vs clinton / sanders. (1) http://www.ibtimes.com/donald-trump-tweets-lower-reading…

The under-educated are probably a sizable and growing segment of the populace, so why shouldn't a politician be pandering to them?

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#72

Post by enraged_camel »

aresant wrote: post #17

"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…

I don't think it's a cultural issue. I think it's deeper than that: it's about identity and self-worth.

The reason I say this is because a lot of people base who they are on what they do for a living and how well they do it. The feeling of being needed by other people is what gives a lot of people their sense of self-worth. IMO the biggest risk with a UBI program is that it will cause huge gaps in this equation as a lot of people realize they no longer have to work to feed and clothe themselves. So, when we finally come around to rolling out UBI nationally (I see it as simply inevitable), it needs to be accompanied by lots and lots of social programming that aims to decouple people's sense of self-worth from their perceived worth to society.

I envision a future where traditional introductions go from:

"My name is Bob, I'm from Cleveland, and I'm an electrician."

to:

"My name is Bob, I'm from Cleveland, and I spend my time tending to my garden and teaching the kids in the neighborhood how to grow plants."

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#74

Post by [deleted] »

jcizzle wrote: post #70
Retra wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "work culture" is built upon the very narrow understanding of 'work' that is prevalent in American culture: that of making money in a self-beneficial way. You don't have this kind of work culture when you're looking at people in the abstract and measuring their ability to benefit society.

If you believe that the only reason people work is to selfishly make money, then OK, there's not much convincing I can do here. It reminds me of the argument that supporting Brexit can only be accounted for by xenophobia or racism. Is it really true that that many people are bigots? Or maybe there is another explanation that isn't being accounted for? Either way, earning money is not a selfish thing - it requires ano…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#75

Post by [deleted] »

vkou wrote: post #33
jcizzle wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is a group of people whose collaborative efforts are able to accomplish more than any one individual and more than simply a sum of individuals. That means 'work', which is another word for 'doing something for someone else'. It is selfish to believe that one can belong to a group of people and obtain the benefits without contributing to it.

A lot of work does little to benefit society. It is a collaborative effort to enrich your employer.

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#76

Post by abannin »

maxerickson wrote: post #27
abannin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Social Security just age restricted basic income? It seems strange to have UBI and then give citizens another check after they hit retirement age.

The retirement part of Social Security is conditional. The amount of the benefit is determined based on working salary and there is a (fairly minimal) amount of working years that must be recorded to receive it. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf The disability system is different (but also obviously conditional).

It looks like I don't fully understand the system. I suspect there is a need based system that supplements Social Security benefits if the recipient is below the poverty line?

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#77

Post by lumberjack »

mason240 wrote: post #34
jaimeyap wrote: post #2

The formulation of the question frames Social Security and Medicare as being mutually exclusive with a UBI. UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! I am a huge fan of UBI, and I would have voted "disagree" the way that question was framed. A better formulation would be to frame UBI as an "automation dividend". Where we dip into increased efficiencies produced b…

>UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! Why would you receive extra retirement payments on top of UBI? That would defeat the entire purpose of UBI.

Well in that case it would be a rotten deal. Why would anyone want this crap instead of a normal pension?

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#78

Post by [deleted] »

jcizzle wrote: post #70
Retra wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "work culture" is built upon the very narrow understanding of 'work' that is prevalent in American culture: that of making money in a self-beneficial way. You don't have this kind of work culture when you're looking at people in the abstract and measuring their ability to benefit society.

If you believe that the only reason people work is to selfishly make money, then OK, there's not much convincing I can do here. It reminds me of the argument that supporting Brexit can only be accounted for by xenophobia or racism. Is it really true that that many people are bigots? Or maybe there is another explanation that isn't being accounted for? Either way, earning money is not a selfish thing - it requires ano…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#79

Post by natrius »

Retra wrote: post #67
natrius wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. While I think a basic income is a good idea, the people I think it will make better off don't actually want it. They want jobs. Perhaps we should be considering a new Works Progress Administration instead.

Maybe you should let those people speak for themselves. But I guess if you did that, we'd never hear anything.

They are speaking for themselves. They want protectionism that will make us all less wealthy, and won't address the reality that automation is the real competitor. Someone has to come up with a good solution that makes everyone happier, or we'll get popular "solutions" that are harmful.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#80

Post by e40 »

jcizzle wrote: post #70
Retra wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "work culture" is built upon the very narrow understanding of 'work' that is prevalent in American culture: that of making money in a self-beneficial way. You don't have this kind of work culture when you're looking at people in the abstract and measuring their ability to benefit society.

If you believe that the only reason people work is to selfishly make money, then OK, there's not much convincing I can do here. It reminds me of the argument that supporting Brexit can only be accounted for by xenophobia or racism. Is it really true that that many people are bigots? Or maybe there is another explanation that isn't being accounted for? Either way, earning money is not a selfish thing - it requires ano…

Is it really true that that many people are bigots?

I think it's pretty clear that xenophobic resistance to Remain was whipped up by various politicians. Are the people that voted based on this bigots? Many of them, yes, but some are just exhibiting fear of "them" (taking jobs, etc).

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