Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#51

Post by deathanatos » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #23

Retric wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A flater tax rate would make up a large chunk of the difference. Basicly, at 50k you still get UBI, but it's offset by new taxes to leave your after tax income more or less the same. At 25k, you pay a lot more in taxes, but get a UBI for a net gain. At 0k you just get UBI, not food stamps ect. There would probably be a net cost increase, but as SS counts as regular income it's not going to be huge for most retires. A…

I thought the U stood for universal. If you take it back in new taxes, it's just a transfer program from productive to non-productive.

But I have to echo eanzenberg's comment,

> How do you reconcile the massive increase in spending this would cause?

If you're giving each person $13k/yr, does that not imply that you must then collect $13k/yr/person in taxes? Unless you're thinking it is all going to come from corporate taxes, then at least some of it must come from a citizen's taxes, no? (and if you do think this should come from corporations, do you not think that would have an effect on what gets passed to an employee? Why not pay a person $13k/yr less? — or more, since some people won't/can't work and we must cover them too?)

I have no idea if UBI is a good idea or not … but if people want to do it, I expect to know how it will be paid for.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#52

Post by harryh » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #29

aresant wrote: post #17

"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…

Unless you're rich. If you're rich, and not working, your opinions are valued and respected.

I don't think that's necessarily true. It's true for some people, mostly those that are rich because of their past work.

But I don't think it's true for people that didn't earn their money through work like those that inherited it or won the lottery. Society can be pretty dismissive of people in these categories.

I even think that we differentiate between people who are rich from work. Some people are seen has "having really earned it" while others "just got lucky." Shades of grey for sure, and people might disagree here but I think this is a real phenomenon that those who are seen as having done more valuable work are held in higher esteem.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#53

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #23

Retric wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A flater tax rate would make up a large chunk of the difference. Basicly, at 50k you still get UBI, but it's offset by new taxes to leave your after tax income more or less the same. At 25k, you pay a lot more in taxes, but get a UBI for a net gain. At 0k you just get UBI, not food stamps ect. There would probably be a net cost increase, but as SS counts as regular income it's not going to be huge for most retires. A…

I thought the U stood for universal. If you take it back in new taxes, it's just a transfer program from productive to non-productive.

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#54

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

aresant wrote: post #17

"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…

Is there anything particularly Trump-esque about, "Work = being part of society?" Is your logic that anything Trump likes is automatically wrong? Or is that an entirely subjective appeal?

My personal experience with periods of time where I was under-employed, is that "Work = being part of society." People feel better when they know they are actively contributing. That's just a simple truth.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#55

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

malka wrote: post #40

mason240 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! Why would you receive extra retirement payments on top of UBI? That would defeat the entire purpose of UBI.

healthcare is not an extra payment though. I think it is important to have a universal healthcare even with UBI.

Yes, the most immediate thing that can be done to effect progress towards a UBI is to lower medical costs.

The tricky question is whether we can do that. For instance, does new medical technology do much to lower lifetime spending?

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#56

Post by RangerScience » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #31

aresant wrote: post #17

"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…

Agreed. While I think a basic income is a good idea, the people I think it will make better off don't actually want it. They want jobs. Perhaps we should be considering a new Works Progress Administration instead.

A portion of those people will make their own jobs. Most of that portion are some form of artist - I know dancers, leatherworkers, acrobats, and event planners that would readily go after UBI - although what's interesting is that al those people already DO have jobs, just not the ones they want, or that pay the bills well enough.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#57

Post by brooklyndavs » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

"Raising taxes is costly and so redistribution should be targeted to those who need help most." - Oliver Hart

So what if most people are out of a job in 50 years due to automation? What if "targeted to those who need help most" is 90% of all adults. Yeah raising taxes is costly, but considering owners of capital will most likely see most of the benefits from productivity gains in the future I'm sure they can afford it.

More from Mr Hart "Bill Gates would get 13K, which is crazy."

Um yeah, Bill Gates also will get social security and medicare (and he should). That's the whole point of a benefit. I wonder if Mr Hart is an advocate for means testings of these programs? How lovely is it that "experts" like this have the ears of our policy makers.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#58

Post by nine_k » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

aresant wrote: post #17

"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…

Certain part of a society are definitely different than other parts.

For instance, children are definitely a part of the society, and a very important part, but they differ from grown-ups in many regards. For one thing, they are dependent on their parents / guardians.

Other people, even totally grown up, may be considered so dependent on e.g. the government that they are not even allowed to vote due to the conflict of interest. E.g. US troops were not allowed to vote for most of the US history.

Were UBI enacted, I'm sure people who choose to live entirely off it, and people who choose to work (and thus provide the means for the UBI, among other things), will inevitably be seen differently, and you can't help it. Consider it when thinking about equality, integration of the society, etc.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#59

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

deathanatos wrote: post #51

wang_li wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the U stood for universal. If you take it back in new taxes, it's just a transfer program from productive to non-productive.

But I have to echo eanzenberg's comment, > How do you reconcile the massive increase in spending this would cause? If you're giving each person $13k/yr, does that not imply that you must then collect $13k/yr/person in taxes? Unless you're thinking it is all going to come from corporate taxes, then at least some of it must come from a citizen's taxes, no? (and if you do think this should come from corporations, do you…

You can just print the money or otherwise conjure it into existence. For instance, by telling banks to change numbers in their databases.

It probably isn't a good idea, but it's possible.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#60

Post by jcizzle » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #33

jcizzle wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is a group of people whose collaborative efforts are able to accomplish more than any one individual and more than simply a sum of individuals. That means 'work', which is another word for 'doing something for someone else'. It is selfish to believe that one can belong to a group of people and obtain the benefits without contributing to it.

A lot of work does little to benefit society. It is a collaborative effort to enrich your employer.

That is a viewpoint that ignores the level at which humans, especially in the US, live at. The amount of work and people that goes into having convenient access to food, transportation and clean water is incredible. And those are just basic needs that we take for granted. Your employer creates good and services that people consume, therefore, the work enriches society. If your short-sightedness only extends to the point where you are evaluating who is making the bigger paycheck, I'd say that is a shortcoming of your self-awareness, not of society.