Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 368 posts

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#221

Post by Frondo »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #98

>Not sure why you're being downvoted. HN is pretty intolerant of anything that isn't the far left, which is a bit ironic for what's supposed to be an entrepreneurial forum. This change seemed to happen a year or two ago. I suspect HN has been fully "redditized" now with college identity politics being the prominent narrative. The drive-by downvotes are just a symptom of that.

I haven't seen this to be true at all, but this comment is also a good example of something that doesn't add anything to the conversation (and gets downvoted).

I have seen more downvoted content here lately, but it's largely due to it not being very good--one liners, throw-away stuff, etc. I'm glad that's getting shuffled off to the side.

As for any shift in politics, I haven't seen that, but I have noticed that unchecked assumptions about libertarian-leaning ideas no longer get a pass. Still, that doesn't mean the site's becoming a leftist "college identity politics" (I can't even respond to that) thing, just that people expect thoughtfulness.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#222

Post by majewsky »

bleepbloop22 wrote: post #121
wyager wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

Shouldn't blame the companies for lobbying and creating the tax laws either -- they're just acting rationally! Maybe we can blame people for behaving unethically instead of believing this shlock?

I don't like that how tax evasion is called "rational" here. They're merely performing their prescribed role within a system, without regard for consequences. If a company were to look at the situation rationally, they might very well conclude that paying taxes is rational because taxes pay for the infrastructure that enables their business.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#223

Post by downandout »

munificent wrote: post #215
downandout wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

How does that thinking apply when you consider that companies actively lobby and work to affect the laws? Are you arguing that companies have a responsibility to change laws to maximize their profits? If a company could get a law passed that let them, say, remove all environmental restrictions, are you arguing that they should do that? Do their fiduciary responsibilities trump their social ones?

For-profit corporations are not formed to serve the public good. They are formed to make money for their shareholders. They can and should always act in their own interest.

Lawmakers exist specifically to serve the public good. If they are allowing lobbyists to affect this responsibility, then they should be voted out of office.

So yes, corporations that can afford to do so have a responsibility to try to get laws passed that favor them, and elected lawmakers have a responsibility to the public to ensure the laws that they pass are in the public interest.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#224

Post by bobwaycott »

downandout wrote: post #201
ZacharyPitts wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits / reduce tax burden is a myth. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7985690

There are legitimate discussions that can be had about the specific strategies that companies should use to maximize shareholder value. For example, paying higher wages might mean better employees and ultimately more profits despite the increased costs. Long-term investments in R&D might result in higher overall value for the company, despite the short-term hit to the balance sheet. However, I don't think a legitimat…

That you cannot think of such an argument doesn't mean much. That such possible arguments wouldn't obtain "legitimacy" in your mind explains far more about your conception of the role of business in society. There are no optional taxes—any company that actively seeks ways to avoid taxes is not dealing justly or ethically with the society in which it exists. The same goes for citizens. A healthy and just society cannot exist when its citizens, and their corporations, seek to enjoy all the benefits of citizenship and the services provided, but simultaneously work diligently to avoid upholding their end of the arrangement to support and perpetuate a healthy and just society.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#225

Post by varjag »

pfortuny wrote: post #87
cocotino wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"should be illegal" means it is not. What exactly is your point? Shaming debtors of the country is not ok?

Shaming them is not legal because it is defamation and the authority (Montoro) is obliged to denounce it, not to make it public. Let the media make whatever is public, public, but not the minister. He has, several times, menaced the media (for example, "El Mundo", to "speak out about you")... I find that dirty. Edit: And a corruption of justice (presumption of innocence even for fiscal deeds). (See comments above): h…

I'm not sure defamation is even applicable to corporate entities across the EU.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#226

Post by effie »

venomsnake wrote: post #205
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taxes shouldn't be seen as a burden, they should be seen as an opportunity. What a load of garbage. Taxes are theft at the end of a gun and we have little choice in how they are used. It's downright ignorant to believe that most taxes are used for the betterment of society rather than to line the pockets of select constituencies. Your conflation of "society" with "government" is fictitious.

They are not theft, because a human does not have innate property rights(or any other kinds of rights for that matter). All your rights are provided and guaranteed by the state.

In the western society, people do have rights in fact, even if not granted formally by some government. This is because vast majority of other people respect those rights, without needing government to tell them. For example, most people accept my right to wear red shoes. Nobody really gave me that right; it is obvious. Similarly for the right to private ownership, the right to express myself and the right to move.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#227

Post by simonh »

antr wrote: post #168
wyager wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

I'm an energy investor and get to work with tax advisors and lawyers very often in order to maximise tax structures and cash repatriation. Everything we do is approved by tax authorities and positively seen by our shareholders. I agree to a certain extent with you that companies are acting rationally. I can assure you it's my responsibility to make the best use of these tools. However, the direct and indirect pressur…

Ok, but that's not tax avoidance because the companies are absolutely following government rules. Given the choice of having billions of dollars of investment in their country and thousands of jobs but no corporate tax; or no investment and no jobs and no tax, those governments are making a rational choice.

The real problem comes when these deals disadvantage local businesses competing with the big foreign conglomerates. But often these deals are really only necessary because the government has set up ridiculously high trade barriers, so the only way to get investment is with ludicrously generous deals. Brazil seems to be a classic example of this. The entire economic system is tangled mess of massive market distortions.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#228

Post by bobwaycott »

oldmanjay wrote: post #216
spdy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a tax be in this category?

There are many ways a tax can be unethical. It may finance torture, invasion, and fomenting coups in undeveloped nations that lead to widespread suffering. For example.

That is not an ethical problem with the tax, but with the choices made by leadership on policies and budgets.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#229

Post by bobwaycott »

mrschwabe wrote: post #218
andrewprock wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like asking "what if profits are unethical?"

Why would profits be unethical?

Profits would be unethical if they were derived from unethical business practices. This isn't difficult to imagine.
Post reply on HN