Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#191

Post by lmm » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

louprado wrote: post #176

goodplay wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent raises a good point though: Tax law is extremely complex when it doesn't need to be. The only justification for this complexity (that I could come up with) is exactly that it's complex to enable tax evasion/tax burden minimization.

Agreed. If we are going to tax corporations then why not a flat tax on the gross revenues. In the U.S a 3% tax rate on gross is the approximate revenue the IRS currently collects. Pass the expense to your customer if you are in a low margin business. A business can't tell their landlord that they owe no rent because they are "unprofitable" ? Why then do we accept this excuse from the businesses who benefit the most f…

Because we want to allow specialization to increase efficiency. Rather than the nail company selling its nails to hardware stores and the screw company selling its screws to hardware stores, it's more efficient if they both sell to a supplier that can then sell to stores - it means only O(N) rather than O(N*M) different relationships to maintain, and the nail manufacturer can concentrate on its core competency of making nails rather than having to employ a bunch of people who know how to get their products in stores.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#192

Post by kmkemp » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:55 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #114

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

It's only rational if the damage to reputation and potential legal consequences are less than the savings. The more often stuff like this happens, the less clear that it becomes that using tax havens is a net positive for companies. I agree with your point, though.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#193

Post by uola » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #120

JoshTriplett wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Off-topic meta-conversation.) HN tends to downvote any political comments, especially comments that turn the discussion more political, even in a story that already tangentially touches on politics. The HN guidelines more-or-less document the former; the latter seems like a natural consequence. In general, politics is almost always off-topic here; there are many other places to discuss politics. (Personally, I tend…

>HN tends to downvote any political comments This is, by far, the most political site I go to. The top comments are often politicized and the top stories are typical social media "outrage" stories. I think you're painting a picture of HN that really doesn't exist, but did probably long ago. HN now suffers from the 'eternal September' many popular forums do. Techy forum participants are often high school and college s…

Your the one creating the "eternal september" discussion in this thread. You take a story about international trade and make into a left-right issue, promoting your pet opnion that Europe have moved to far to the left. Then you turn the whole thread into meta by complaining how HN is turning into reddit (something so common it even is warned against in the guidelines).

Not only are your comments utterly predictable, and therefor uninteresting, they are factually incorrect. It's often the right wing that want to protect the local market. The US just forced China to limit subsidies on exports [0]. The UKs exit of the EU is largely a result of the left wing not being able to convince their votes, in favor of right wing conservatives.

That Europe has turned to the left as a result of the financial crisis is also not substantiated [1][2]. The few countries that have in recent years are have all been forced to enact (right wing) economic reforms. Including Greece, France and Portugal. Which is why people are protesting, not because they have suddenly become more leftist.

If you think HN has become leftist it's very likely that you are simply older than most people on HN. Young people today, whether they consider themselves left or right, are forced to care about things like housing, healthcare, employment and other issues that were previously considered left wing because society is changing.

[0] http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4f4d1240-024a-11e6-99cb-83242733f7... [1] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-q8uKkXy8X4I/TjH0passYGI/AAAAAAAAGV... [2] http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/1D03/production...

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#194

Post by mancerayder » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #105

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #98

>Not sure why you're being downvoted. HN is pretty intolerant of anything that isn't the far left, which is a bit ironic for what's supposed to be an entrepreneurial forum. This change seemed to happen a year or two ago. I suspect HN has been fully "redditized" now with college identity politics being the prominent narrative. The drive-by downvotes are just a symptom of that.

(Off-topic meta-conversation.) HN tends to downvote any political comments, especially comments that turn the discussion more political, even in a story that already tangentially touches on politics. The HN guidelines more-or-less document the former; the latter seems like a natural consequence. In general, politics is almost always off-topic here; there are many other places to discuss politics. (Personally, I tend…

What is the definition of "political"? If it's a question of tax, of stock options, of a free speech law, which top HN submissions often are, these are all political in the traditional definition. I feel your definition is something you have in mind, but haven't articulated. By political it seems like you are talking about "right versus left explicitly" type politics?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#195

Post by nolok » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

I think a point to remember, is that there is profound difference between common law and civil law in that in civil law country the spirit of the law is usually more important than specific wording, and precedents have much less impact.

I think the current chase after big companies is mostly a change in the interpretation of the spirit of the law. One could argue it creates a dangerous climate for business and it's probably right, but at the same time no one ever argued that what those companies did was moral in regard of the law, only that it followed it's wording.

(I personally think our laws should change, but at the same time it's obvious that countries like Ireland, Latvia, Netherlands... Would veto it at the EU level)

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#196

Post by andrewprock » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #190

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

Yet, they also have an ethical responsibility to the society in which they operate. Being legal and ethical are two different things.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#197

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

andrewprock wrote: post #196

downandout wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

Yet, they also have an ethical responsibility to the society in which they operate. Being legal and ethical are two different things.

[deleted]

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#198

Post by ZacharyPitts » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #190

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

Fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits / reduce tax burden is a myth.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7985690

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#199

Post by spacehome » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

ghurtado wrote: post #166

spacehome wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such thing. Every misguided thought deserves a rebuttal. Just admit you're too lazy to do it. That's fine.

Nothing to do with laziness. It's a matter of pragmatism. Some wild conspiracy theories are so out of touch with reality that engaging in correction or education (a rebuttal) is a futile effort and a complete waste of time. If I told you that "I can't speak freely because agents of the shadow government are watching my every move via microchips implanted into my brain at birth", would you really take the trouble to r…

If I cared about you, I would at least make the effort to respond rationally. In some sort of theoretical sense, I care about all sentient beings, but I just don't care about you enough.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#200

Post by spacehome » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

ComodoHacker wrote: post #143

spacehome wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the slightest idea if they pay dividends. I own Google shares indirectly via ownership of index funds.

Google shares will grow regardless of how much taxes they pay. But they may fluctuate if tax evasion scandal breaks.

That's strawmanning my position. I would prefer they grow by 7.1% than 7%.