Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#211

Post by andrewprock » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #201

ZacharyPitts wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits / reduce tax burden is a myth. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7985690

There are legitimate discussions that can be had about the specific strategies that companies should use to maximize shareholder value. For example, paying higher wages might mean better employees and ultimately more profits despite the increased costs. Long-term investments in R&D might result in higher overall value for the company, despite the short-term hit to the balance sheet. However, I don't think a legitimat…

Of course there is. I think there is a strong economic consensus that government subsidies can be bad. Your argument essentially invalidates that and supports a world where legal corruption is moral.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#212

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #120

JoshTriplett wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Off-topic meta-conversation.) HN tends to downvote any political comments, especially comments that turn the discussion more political, even in a story that already tangentially touches on politics. The HN guidelines more-or-less document the former; the latter seems like a natural consequence. In general, politics is almost always off-topic here; there are many other places to discuss politics. (Personally, I tend…

>HN tends to downvote any political comments This is, by far, the most political site I go to. The top comments are often politicized and the top stories are typical social media "outrage" stories. I think you're painting a picture of HN that really doesn't exist, but did probably long ago. HN now suffers from the 'eternal September' many popular forums do. Techy forum participants are often high school and college s…

[deleted]

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#213

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

aianus wrote: post #160

spriggan3 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point I'm making is that Google did pack up and leave No they did not. There is a Google Spain and a Google France. They can't escape the Spanish law or the french law if they have an office in these countries, no matter where Google trully is incorporated, and there is an obvious reason why they have officies in these countries. So what Google Spain and Google France do is that they pay huge fees to Google Ire…

Google Search and Adwords are not developed in Spain or France. In effect these subsidiaries are just local distributors for a US product. If Apple sells an iPhone (developed in the US and built in China) to retailers in Paris, should they have to pay French income tax on the entire profit of the phone? Of course not, that's ridiculous, even if the retailer is an Apple subsidiary.

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Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#214

Post by varjag » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

khedoros wrote: post #187

qsymmachus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why abuse of rights is an important legal principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_rights Rational != Ethical

Unethical != Illegal. If acting in an unethical manner causes a company fewer liabilities than acting ethically, which choice do you expect them (an amoral entity) to make? I expect that they'll keep pushing boundaries until it starts costing them.

Google infamously has an ethical clause in their mission statement, so we expect them to make a moral choice. Or is it a trick question?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#215

Post by munificent » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #190

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

How does that thinking apply when you consider that companies actively lobby and work to affect the laws?

Are you arguing that companies have a responsibility to change laws to maximize their profits? If a company could get a law passed that let them, say, remove all environmental restrictions, are you arguing that they should do that?

Do their fiduciary responsibilities trump their social ones?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#216

Post by oldmanjay » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

spdy wrote: post #209

mrschwabe wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the taxes are unethical?

How can a tax be in this category?

There are many ways a tax can be unethical. It may finance torture, invasion, and fomenting coups in undeveloped nations that lead to widespread suffering. For example.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#217

Post by wongarsu » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #167

Joeri wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A government cannot provide its people with justice, human rights and quality of life without money, money that as a society we have chosen to collect through taxes. For better or worse, corporations have chosen (and legally fought for) the right to be treated as persons. That makes them part of the society and obligated to contribute to the society in the same way as every person. When they then dodge paying their f…

> Taxes shouldn't be seen as a burden, they should be seen as an opportunity. What a load of garbage. Taxes are theft at the end of a gun and we have little choice in how they are used. It's downright ignorant to believe that most taxes are used for the betterment of society rather than to line the pockets of select constituencies. Your conflation of "society" with "government" is fictitious.

>Taxes are theft at the end of a gun and we have little choice in how they are used

That's a big reason why democracies became popular (see for example the french revolution, or the boston tea party). A democracy is a system in which the residents of a country (directly or indirectly) decide on matters of government, like which taxes should be collected and how they should be spent.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#218

Post by mrschwabe » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

andrewprock wrote: post #208

mrschwabe wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the taxes are unethical?

That's like asking "what if profits are unethical?"

Why would profits be unethical?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#219

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

feiss wrote: post #39

josu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to give some context, a few years ago the Spanish Police arrested the leaders of Anonymous [1]. As a Spaniard, my opinion is that this is just an intimidatory and political move. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/spain-says-it-has-arrested-anonymou...

I agree. They do it the same day they publish a list of the biggest debtors, and 4 days after elections. http://es.reuters.com/article/topNews/idESKCN0ZG1E6

> after elections

Isn't that backwards?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#220

Post by wyager » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #163

wyager wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

A government cannot provide its people with justice, human rights and quality of life without money, money that as a society we have chosen to collect through taxes. For better or worse, corporations have chosen (and legally fought for) the right to be treated as persons. That makes them part of the society and obligated to contribute to the society in the same way as every person. When they then dodge paying their f…

> A government cannot provide its people with justice, human rights and quality of life

Justice like secret FISA courts and no-due-process restrictions on travel?

Human rights like free speech? Good job Merkle, Ergodan is proud. Due process? Haha. Protection from unreasonable searches and seizures? "Civil asset forfeiture" would like a word.

Quality of life? You mean the thing I get from novel technology, but that is constantly hindered by IP law and overregulation?

> as a society we have chosen to collect through taxes

Huh, I don't remember being privy to that decision... In fact, as best I can tell, most people are compelled to pay taxes by the threat of violence!

>A way to contribute to the society

And a way to contribute to droning of US citizens, and the funding of Israeli weapons programs, and corporate subsidies, and a way to pay for massive surveillance apparatus... Great!

You're right; society created many of the opportunities we have today. The government isn't society.