Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#201

Post by downandout » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

ZacharyPitts wrote: post #198

downandout wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

Fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits / reduce tax burden is a myth. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7985690

There are legitimate discussions that can be had about the specific strategies that companies should use to maximize shareholder value. For example, paying higher wages might mean better employees and ultimately more profits despite the increased costs. Long-term investments in R&D might result in higher overall value for the company, despite the short-term hit to the balance sheet.

However, I don't think a legitimate argument can be made that companies should pay what amount to optional taxes (taxes they could avoid but don't). Lawmakers are free to change the laws, but large corporations will always pay the minimum allowed by those laws.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#202

Post by mrschwabe » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

andrewprock wrote: post #196

downandout wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

Yet, they also have an ethical responsibility to the society in which they operate. Being legal and ethical are two different things.

What if the taxes are unethical?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#203

Post by pdkl95 » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

goodplay wrote: post #161

qsymmachus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why abuse of rights is an important legal principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_rights Rational != Ethical

The parent raises a good point though: Tax law is extremely complex when it doesn't need to be. The only justification for this complexity (that I could come up with) is exactly that it's complex to enable tax evasion/tax burden minimization.

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010510

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#204

Post by mjevans » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #69

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can this still be possible? Shouldn't all tax legislation be such that if you break the spirit of it by having internal transfers (royalties, fees, interest) to a low-tax area, then you are still taxed based on the business that you had in the country in question, and based on the net sum (i.e. zero). How would that even work? The costs are actually costs. Imagine it was actually a dozen different companies. On…

> How would that even work? The costs are actually costs. I'm not sure how it would work. Corporate income taxes don't make much sense in itself of course. The profits could be taxed as cap gains and everyone would be happy - so long as companies weren't multinational. The problem here is that a company may be making a huge profit in some country by using resources paid for by tax money in that country (such as roads…

I think you're on the correct track, but a concept that I saw and loved from one of the many earlier tax related discussions offers a more clear solution.

Tax ownership of assets.

It's rather difficult to hide that /someone/ owns a phone, a car, a house, some land. Tax the ownership of value, not it's transfer.

Globally you would see the impact of sales increase taxes most where the profit actually accumulates; assuming that those types of values are taxed properly. In practice I would imagine that this would be increasing taxes on ownership of 'financial instruments'.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#205

Post by venomsnake » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #167

Joeri wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A government cannot provide its people with justice, human rights and quality of life without money, money that as a society we have chosen to collect through taxes. For better or worse, corporations have chosen (and legally fought for) the right to be treated as persons. That makes them part of the society and obligated to contribute to the society in the same way as every person. When they then dodge paying their f…

> Taxes shouldn't be seen as a burden, they should be seen as an opportunity. What a load of garbage. Taxes are theft at the end of a gun and we have little choice in how they are used. It's downright ignorant to believe that most taxes are used for the betterment of society rather than to line the pockets of select constituencies. Your conflation of "society" with "government" is fictitious.

They are not theft, because a human does not have innate property rights(or any other kinds of rights for that matter). All your rights are provided and guaranteed by the state.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#206

Post by andrewprock » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

george_ciobanu wrote: post #135

This is ridiculous and a form of bullying. If you want multinationals to pay tax, fix the laws. Were they really expecting Google to fake anything? No, they were looking to cause bad press. Form international alliances and create a proper incentive structure if you want to collect.

Google's tax avoidance is likewise ridiculous. Neither the bullying, nor the avoidance are illegal. If you support one, you should support the other.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#207

Post by RobertoG » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

cocotino wrote: post #67

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #64

Spain shaking down Google, while the US shakes down VW. A trade war by any other name...

the fuck has Spain to do with VW

A lot actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAT

(Not that I agree with the grandparent)

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#208

Post by andrewprock » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

mrschwabe wrote: post #202

andrewprock wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, they also have an ethical responsibility to the society in which they operate. Being legal and ethical are two different things.

What if the taxes are unethical?

That's like asking "what if profits are unethical?"

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#209

Post by spdy » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

mrschwabe wrote: post #202

andrewprock wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, they also have an ethical responsibility to the society in which they operate. Being legal and ethical are two different things.

What if the taxes are unethical?

How can a tax be in this category?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#210

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

pfortuny wrote: post #60

Another PR stunt of the minister, Montoro. No more than that. He also makes public a lost of debtors to the IRS (which should be illegal but he gets away with anything). Edit: Spaniard here.

[deleted]