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Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

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Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#81

Post by hackuser »

x5n1 wrote: post #29

> This is a serious security threat for many Muslims abroad. It's not a threat. It's a wake up call. The less you can bury all that goes on under the rug the less easier it is to justify repressive, hypocritical cultures like the cultures around Islam.

This discussion painting an entire religion, condemning and insulting a billion individuals, as criminal and violent is ignorant and disgusting, and should not be on Hacker News (or anywhere else in civilized society).

I can only imagine what Muslim readers of HN feel when reading it, seeing that our community - and YCombinator - appear to condone it.

The problem isn't Muslims, Christians or any other religion; it's hateful, ignorant attitudes.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#82

Post by basseq »

mikeash wrote: post #71
mod wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're correct in that the same users are presenting different tones (which I don't necessarily agree with), then perhaps it could be summed up by, as you say, impressing our own values on the situation. Perhaps we think it's fitting for adulterers to be outed & shamed, but we don't think it's fitting for them to be attacked or jailed or executed.

That last part is an excellent point. Approximately nobody suffered legal prosecution, mob justice, or honor killings due to the AM leak. The potential consequences here are much more severe.

Agreed, well put on the severity of the consequences.

Was anyone in the AM leak Muslim and persecuted? I didn't hear about any stories. Will anyone here be persecuted for their actions? We don't know and are supposing.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#83

Post by Spivak »

selimthegrim wrote: post #57
Spivak wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as much as white/black are races. A less snarky answer is that just like Jews there is a separation of cultural Muslims and religious Muslims, the former representing a race.

Oh really? Expand on this?

It's an important disclaimer that race is ultimately a human construct so when if say that something is a race I mean that people either identify themselves or a class of people as belonging to that race.

Back to the point, certain religions are so ingrained culturally and politically that people start to identify themselves culturally and ethnically with the faith because of the people's shared ethical values, history and background. This would have also happened with Christianity if it weren't for the fact that it's the 'default' in the western world.

A person who grows up in the Muslim world, is taught Islamic history, is raised with Islamic values, and practices national and ethnic 'rituals'^1, but is nonreligious might choose to identify themselves as racially Muslim but not religiously.

Conversely a light skinned person in predominately Christian area who finds Islam later in life might say they are racially white, American, or identify with their ancestors ethnicity, but identify themselves as religiously Muslim.

^1 Despite the connotation this isn't necessarily religious. The 4th of July celebration in the US is a ritual.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#84

Post by hackuser »

mikeash wrote: post #73
ss108 wrote: post #39

The comments about honor killings and stoning for adultery are a bit ridiculous. Honor killings usually happen in tribal and rural segments of Pakistan--not the kinds of people who use Muslim Match. Not all of the users are even from Pakistan, many were probably from the US and the UK, and a lot of the people on there were just genuinely looking for a spouse. Do you guys really think that nobody has premarital sex in…

Here are several examples of honor killings in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_St... I'm sure you can find them in other countries too. The people who use Muslim Match and the people who would commit honor killings aren't the same people. I don't see why it's so unimaginable that a child might use Muslim Match and their parent might think honor killings are necessary.

A few examples of something happening in a country of 300 million is meaningless; I expect more people were struck by lightening.

(Also, a Wikipedia article on a hot button issue isn't reliable, IMHO; it's only the product of some partisan(s) willing to spend more time editing than everyone else.)

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#85

Post by hackuser »

DominikR wrote: post #12

This is clearly a criminal and very evil act that will likely harm many people, not just emotionally but also physically. I wonder how anyone could be so deranged to do something like this. But it is also a cultural problem of these Muslim societies that they actually stone people to death for adultery. This is horrific. If I were to make a dating app then I would outright ban all of these countries because I don't w…

> Muslim societies that they actually stone people to death for adultery

This is false. Put on your skeptical, critical thinking cap:

1) Do you really know that stoning is prevelant, and not just a few sensational news stories?

2) Is there a high correlation? That is, are there Muslim societies that don't stone people (maybe in wealthy parts of the world)? Are there other groups that do stone people and do similarly brutal things (maybe in poor parts of the world)?

It's very serious to spread this misinformation; this is how hatred and discrimination spread, and how brutal things happen to minorities. Consider that many of the worst calamities in history are based on ignorance and hatred of the 'other' ethnicity, including what has happened in the wealthiest nations.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#86

Post by basseq »

jacquesm wrote: post #51
basseq wrote: post #45

At the risk of making a tenuous (and inflammatory) connection, I'm struck by the difference in tone between this and the Ashley Madison leak. Here, there's sentiments of "how terrible", "leaked users might have severe consequences", and "this ruins the privacy where people get away from repressive social mores". Ashley Madison, by comparison, was met with sentiments of "good!", "glad we're outing adulters", and "thes…

As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no difference. Maybe you should only make this connection if it is the same individuals that make contradictory responses. Otherwise, HN is not as homogeneous as you seem to think.

I don't think it's homogeneous, but the sentiment "feels" different. (Scientific, I know.) For instance, there aren't people here who are saying, "It's good we're outing adulterers: they deserve it."

I went back and looked at two of the largest HN posts on AM from last year:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10083536

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9914024

And yes, there are a lot of good comments.

* In3d noticed the same thing then that I'm noticing now: "It looks like the reaction of most commenters is very different compared to when Gawker exposed the Conde Naste executive. This hack might have done this very same thing to many people."

* ulrikrasmussen sees the sentiment: "I see a few comments sympathizing with the vigilantes behind this, implying that the exposed users had it coming."

* nicholas_t makes the point about implications to Muslim users: "There are people who live in countries where adultery is punishable by death. Likewise for being gay. There's already one person from Saudi Arabia who expressed his concerns on Reddit but there's likely to be a lot of other people affected."

* dsacco shared an anecdote: "I had an argument with my girlfriend about this. No matter what reasoning I used, no matter what I said, she could not agree that it was wrong that Ashley Madison (A.M.) was hacked. Her position was that marital infidelity is such a punishable offense that the participants on A.M. deserve to be publicly outed. In her view, it was not even up for debate. She felt so powerfully about infidelity that she didn't care."

So yes, the general attitude is the same. You're right. There are just more assholes who said things like: "Zero sympathy. I have zero sympathy for both this site and for the users whose information was stolen. You all deserve it, for being selfish, amoral animals." (A comment that was rightfully downvoted to hell.)

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#87

Post by mikeash »

hackuser wrote: post #84
mikeash wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are several examples of honor killings in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_St... I'm sure you can find them in other countries too. The people who use Muslim Match and the people who would commit honor killings aren't the same people. I don't see why it's so unimaginable that a child might use Muslim Match and their parent might think honor killings are necessary.

A few examples of something happening in a country of 300 million is meaningless; I expect more people were struck by lightening. (Also, a Wikipedia article on a hot button issue isn't reliable, IMHO; it's only the product of some partisan(s) willing to spend more time editing than everyone else.)

The claim isn't that there will be lots of these, so a small number isn't in any way meaningless. If some incident was going to result in a few more people getting struck and killed by lightning, that might well get a similar reaction.

If you don't like Wikipedia as a source, the original news stories are all linked at the bottom.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#88

Post by JoeAltmaier »

hackuser wrote: post #85
DominikR wrote: post #12

This is clearly a criminal and very evil act that will likely harm many people, not just emotionally but also physically. I wonder how anyone could be so deranged to do something like this. But it is also a cultural problem of these Muslim societies that they actually stone people to death for adultery. This is horrific. If I were to make a dating app then I would outright ban all of these countries because I don't w…

> Muslim societies that they actually stone people to death for adultery This is false. Put on your skeptical, critical thinking cap: 1) Do you really know that stoning is prevelant, and not just a few sensational news stories? 2) Is there a high correlation? That is, are there Muslim societies that don't stone people (maybe in wealthy parts of the world)? Are there other groups that do stone people and do similarly…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Afghanistan

Its trying to be phased out but remains surprisingly pernicious.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#89

Post by [deleted] »

Spivak wrote: post #83
selimthegrim wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really? Expand on this?

It's an important disclaimer that race is ultimately a human construct so when if say that something is a race I mean that people either identify themselves or a class of people as belonging to that race. Back to the point, certain religions are so ingrained culturally and politically that people start to identify themselves culturally and ethnically with the faith because of the people's shared ethical values, histo…

[deleted]

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#90

Post by basseq »

centizen wrote: post #70
basseq wrote: post #45

At the risk of making a tenuous (and inflammatory) connection, I'm struck by the difference in tone between this and the Ashley Madison leak. Here, there's sentiments of "how terrible", "leaked users might have severe consequences", and "this ruins the privacy where people get away from repressive social mores". Ashley Madison, by comparison, was met with sentiments of "good!", "glad we're outing adulters", and "thes…

I think it's an important point to bring up, but I don't feel like the same people who were passing judgement on the AM leak are the ones raising concerns here. But if I had to explain the difference, I think it's the differences in potential backlash on the affected users. Majority of Ashely Madison users were not in countries that would severely persecute them for their activities.

Also note that at least two people committed suicide over the AM leak. Not killed, but death nonetheless.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34044506

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