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Elections are bad for democracy

theguardian.com

81–86 of 86 posts

Re: Elections are bad for democracy

#81
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we are seeing now is IMO hypocrisy and contempt of ordinary people at a scary level. This isn't anything new. It's the justification for all the bureaucratic layering in government. The people are too stupid/bigoted/whatever to make decisions for themselves, so we'll make it for them.

> The people are too stupid/bigoted/whatever to make decisions for themselves, so we'll make it for them. You make this sounds like a bad thing. Of course this is true; this is why we have governments rather than have everyone voting on every decision. Many people are too stupid, or at least misinformed, to weigh up complex decisions. We don't ask people to vote on tax levels and spending plans because they'd tend to…

It's not just about competence though. In the same sense, people are "too stupid" to harvest their own grain, and bake their own bread: we have delegated these tasks to specialists, so that other people in society can pursue different specialisations. This works mainly because of trust: we trust that the baker does not poison us.

We are a social species. Our greatest advancement as a species is the ability to create societies that are stable enough for people to specialize. We are no longer hunter/gatherers exactly because at some point, we stopped requiring that every hunter hunts for himself.

We don't have to weigh up complex decisions, whether we can or not: we have delegated that task to others. Our task is to make sure that our delegates are doing their job dutifully, not make their decisions for them. That is hard enough in practice.

Re: Elections are bad for democracy

#83
post #72
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A jury is a very restricted case. There is a supervising judge and two (or more) competing advocates. The process for choosing those advocates is very formalized (defendant selection and public official). Every one of these other participants breaks the analogy enough to make it useless.

I see I may have skipped showing my work on too many steps here for my point to have made sense initially. Sorry, my fault (no sarcasm). So, when you try to concretely manifest the sortition idea, you find yourself stepping in an awful lot of the same problems you get with juries. With a twist, but very similar. I'd intend to have advocates on hand for the various positions, and if you think the bureaucracy won't be…

> I'd intend to have advocates on hand for the various positions, and if you think the bureaucracy won't be stepping in here with procedures and rules, probably enforced by a process moderator that looks an awful lot like a "judge", along with formalized rules for the other parts of the process, you don't know bureaucracies.

In a US-like system, if you replace election of leaders with sortition, there is no superior bureaucracy that can impose a judge-like supervisor on the sortition-based bodies.

And if you have an bureaucracy that can impose supervision on the elected bodies you are considering replacing, then you don't have a democracy to replace with sortition to start with, you have bureaucratic aristocracy, and talking about problems of elections and democracy is kind of irrelevant to dealing with your system of government.

> There's no way sortition is going to be "randomly choose 100 people, stick them in a room with nothing but a problem statement, accept their decision".

There's basically a couple of possible models of sortition; there's a legislature-like model (where sortition is how you choose legislators for a term, and then they are replaced with a new body chosen by the same method.)

And there's a case-by-case model where there is some method of proposing an issue, and then there is a "jury" chosen for an adversarial "trial" over the issue. (One way you could do this would be to replace one house of a bicameral legislature with case-by-case sortation, so that the remaining house would propose legislation and provide advocates for [and against, usually] that legislation, who would argue in front of a sortition-chosen panel.)

In the latter, case-by-case, approach, there would probably be some bureaucracy supervising the process, and the sortition-based body would be very much like a trial jury in relation to that bureaucracy. But then you aren't replacing the elected body with sortition, you are replacing it with a bureaucracy with sortition serving some function within that bureaucracy.)

In the legislature-like approach, though, a supervising bureaucracy is fundamentally inconsistent with the concept.

> Surely we don't expect the participants to all be auto-didacts?

I would expect members of a legislature chosen by sortition to educate themselves about issues the same way as any other legislature. This probably involves a subordinate bureaucratic infrastructure (e.g., staff employed by each member, and bodies answering to the body as a whole, like the GAO), but not a supervising infrastructure.

Re: Elections are bad for democracy

#84
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that if we're agreed that EFTA is the moderate Brexit option, having nuclear options (destroy chunnel) on the ballot means that you effectively give a democratic mandate for the nuclear implementation (which let's face it, will always be appealing to a substantial minority, see Corbyn) and sideline moderate voices. Saying that the public are in control of the direction of travel but leaving the experts in…

Given his stance, I find it ironic that you'd equate Corbyn with the nuclear option... As I see it, it doesn't really matter if we agree that EFTA is the moderate brexit option: the primary focus of the Leave campaign was on freedom of movement, and it was clear (even before the referendum, given the situation with Norway and Switzerland) that freedom of movement is an integral part of the single market treaties -- a…

Referendums aren't the same thing as elections - they don't come with a set of manifesto promises or a promised programme of government afterwards beyond carrying out the policy suggested in the Referendum.

The politicians making the promises may not even be in the government (it tended to be Leave.EU and Farage that focused on immigration, Vote Leave was wary of doing the same and focused on the economy). All politicians can do in a referendum campaign is talk about implied benefits one way or the other.

It's now up to the politicians to work out the best deal for our country. It's going to be a much smoother ride (and much better for the country as a whole) if free movement of people is allowed and we join EFTA than if the government tries to hold firm on that one, for sure.

Re: Elections are bad for democracy

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if a referendum constructed in that way would actually make decision making worse. As I see it, the public have voted to Leave, but some of the options for Leave are actually quite appealing, and would even appeal to some pragmatic Remainers (Norway-style EFTA agreement, join Schengen, negotiate trade agreements with the EU from the outside on a common basis with other EFTA countries, allow Eurozone to integ…

> but some of the options for Leave are actually quite appealing ... Norway-style EFTA agreement, join Schengen, negotiate trade agreements with the EU from the outside on a common basis with other EFTA countries While those are options that Britain could attempt to pursue if it leaves the EU, they aren't things that Britain can just choose to do . They are things that Britain can try to do after it leaves the EU (bu…

As far as the EFTA option is concerned at least, EFTA is keen to have Britain return: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/27/the-associated-press-the-late...

Re: Elections are bad for democracy

#86

Now, where is the "wisdom of the crowds" when it comes to decisions that we, "the elites", don't like? This annoys me. There is no doubt the result would have been "very fair" if it had been remain. What we are seeing now is IMO hypocrisy and contempt of ordinary people at a scary level. Now, did I want Brexit? No (I had no opinion). Do I think they should have requested more than 50% of the votes? As a conservative…

The Guardian was arguing that referendums were a bad idea back on the evening of the referendum, when it looked like Remain would likely win: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/refere... What's more, this latest article is an excerpt from a book that's probably been months if not years in the making.
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