I propose a simple fix for major elections such as referendums and presidential elections. I call it the "really?" approach: An election needs to get the same results twice back to back. So for instance, you could replace the primaries and November presidential elections with that system. Vote once: whoever is first needs to win the next round to become president. Candidates may decide to drop out, or not. The public…
The result would be a very low turnout on the first vote, with a meaningless result that may or may not be representative of the entire population (because everyone knows the first vote is meaningless so why bother voting), followed by a large turnout on the second vote... and then followed by howling and wailing by which ever side loses and the demanding of a third referendum. Interesting New Zealand recently had a…
Elections are bad for democracy
21–30 of 86 posts
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who decides when someone has "come to grips" with a topic? I mean, anyone who disagrees with me obviously hasn't come to grips with the issue, right?
It's very similar to jury duty. And you'd try to use similar mechanisms to keep the system fair and balanced. And it would have similar failure cases, but "system without failure cases" isn't really on the table here.
Every one of these other participants breaks the analogy enough to make it useless.
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#23This sounds like a variation of Plato's Philosopher Kings, which uses the 'random sampling' argument to get around the obvious criticism of the elites being given the power. > The Ship of State is a famous and oft-cited metaphor put forth by Plato in Book VI of the Republic (488e–489d). It likens the governance of a city-state to the command of a naval vessel and ultimately argues that the only men fit to be captain…
Did you read the whole article? His most significant proposal is that modern democracies adjust their procedures to use something called "sortition" that dates back to ancient Greece. In sortition, rather than polling the entire populace about complicated issues on which they are likely not well informed, we select a balanced random sample of people from the populace , provide them information, and then allow them to…
Referendums are for very important cases were we suspect politicians are out of touch with ordinary people.
This has been a nagging issue in UK for years and finally they figured it was better to ask the people.
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#24"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill, House of Commons, November 11, 1947
We've never tried sortition on a large scale, and on smaller scales it's already been shown effective.
A perfect opportunity to experiment with it would be the Canadian senate, IMO.
Also note: sortition is a form of democracy. In fact I would argue it's the most democratic process proposed which does not run a risk of mob rule. You still have an "elite" making decisions... only that elite is constantly changing, is made of a representative sample of the general population, and is at less risk of being easily corrupted by special interest groups.
It's actually quite beautiful and elegant: so simple, yet it addresses so many of the criticisms of every other system proposed. While at the same time it's incredibly flexible in implementation: it can be perfectly fitted to a parliamentary government structure or any other variation of already existing governments. Any country or state would be able to experiment with it without needing a major overhaul of how its legislative/executive branches operate (only how its members are appointed).
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#25Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#26I propose a simple fix for major elections such as referendums and presidential elections. I call it the "really?" approach: An election needs to get the same results twice back to back. So for instance, you could replace the primaries and November presidential elections with that system. Vote once: whoever is first needs to win the next round to become president. Candidates may decide to drop out, or not. The public…
The result would be a very low turnout on the first vote, with a meaningless result that may or may not be representative of the entire population (because everyone knows the first vote is meaningless so why bother voting), followed by a large turnout on the second vote... and then followed by howling and wailing by which ever side loses and the demanding of a third referendum. Interesting New Zealand recently had a…
Would it? To pass a measure is to approve a change, so there's always a side that wins if the vote doesn't pass. Opponents of a change could defeat it on the first ballot, and would likely focus effort on doing so, especially if turnout was expected to be small -- because the first vote isn't meaningless, if it fails, the measure is dead, and there is no second vote.
But because of this, supporters of the vote would also work very hard to mobilize support in the first ballot, because succeeding in it would be necessary to get to the second.
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#27It styles itself as the voice for the downtrodden and disenfranchised, but the moment they make the 'wrong' decision it posts article after article dedicated to denigrating these same people, advocating their voice be ignored. Quite sad really.
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#28But to this day, we don't have democracy in a single country.
Democracy supposes that the people has the power. It's not the case in what we call democracies today.
You have a small group of people getting in the election pool because of where they come from and how much money they can manipulate. Then, this small group takes most of the decisions, which is what we call an oligarchy.
Voting then, is just a way to swap people from this group. In no way it puts power in the hand of the people.
Quite often people opposes dictatures with our systems to justify that if they are in that state, then we are in a democracy. The fact we have a better, and confortable system doesn't make it magically fit the definition.
For the people to have power, you would need them to want it in the first place. But most don't read political programs, most don't think hard about what their country should do, and most certainly don't accept any responsability for anything happening today in their country. They won't choose what they buy or whatch on TV according to the impact on the social life.
Hence, elections are not bad for democracy, it's just we never manage to use them to setup a democracy in the first place.
In fact, to have a democracy we would need to educate people to want it first. To make everyday's decisions by thinking about it. And to think about what society can become on a regular basis.
Right now, as most of us think and act mostly for ourself, we can't achieve democracy. Democracy cannot be brought only by using a fair political system (that we don't even have), you also need citizens.
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#29Now, where is the "wisdom of the crowds" when it comes to decisions that we, "the elites", don't like? This annoys me. There is no doubt the result would have been "very fair" if it had been remain. What we are seeing now is IMO hypocrisy and contempt of ordinary people at a scary level. Now, did I want Brexit? No (I had no opinion). Do I think they should have requested more than 50% of the votes? As a conservative…
Re: Elections are bad for democracy
#30Now, where is the "wisdom of the crowds" when it comes to decisions that we, "the elites", don't like? This annoys me. There is no doubt the result would have been "very fair" if it had been remain. What we are seeing now is IMO hypocrisy and contempt of ordinary people at a scary level. Now, did I want Brexit? No (I had no opinion). Do I think they should have requested more than 50% of the votes? As a conservative…
This isn't anything new. It's the justification for all the bureaucratic layering in government. The people are too stupid/bigoted/whatever to make decisions for themselves, so we'll make it for them.