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Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

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Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#71

Post by scholia »

wanda wrote: post #38
ZenoArrow wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "is just a meme" Yeah, it's just a meme... just like we couldn't possibly trade in the EU without a trade deal is just a meme... or that all Leave campaigners are racist/stupid is just a meme...

If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid. You might get the same deal, but not a better one. It's just as irrational as an England supporter believing that England can win Euro 2016 after being knocked out. The Leave campaign and the referendum have both been engineered to rid Britain of both UKIP and Euroscepticism, one way or the other. The onl…

> If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid.

Sad but true.

It seems to me the EU has every incentive to offer the worst deal possible, to discourage other EU states from risking the same sort of vote.

Probably the best we could do is get the same deal as Norway, but Norway still pays money to the EU, follows EU regulations (many of them are necessary to sell goods to the EU), and allows the free movement of workers. (As does Switzerland, even though it's not in the EU, and voted against it.)

A number of Leave voters apparently want no immigration and those immigrants we have to be "sent home". I expect this includes all the ones born in London, Birmingham, Bradford, Leicester etc, whose parents arrived in the 1950s and 1960s.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#72

Post by ciconia »

vixen99 wrote: post #13
ciconia wrote: post #2

"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." - Frank Zappa

And what is the relevance of your point with regard to the link in question?

I think it's more or less self-evident, but to put it explicitly, in the current political ambience, results of referenda and elections are determined more by people's susceptibility to scare mongering than rational thinking. Is this relevant enough?

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#73

Post by return0 »

jonwachob91 wrote: post #31
jabbernotty wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the UK needs to trade with Europe, so they cannot ever really leave. Any deal done will end up looking like Switzerland Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality. I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. Going back on that would not be good for future voting or agreements. Swiss politicians did not, as far…

> I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. It was a non-binding referendum. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result... [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887 [3] http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/73775/eu-referendum-is-the-b... [4] http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/23/welcome-to-the-world-after-br...

Do you think there woulnd't be a literal uprising if the government dismissed it ?

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#74

Post by nikcub »

crdoconnor wrote: post #59
Brakenshire wrote: post #22

People are critical of the flagrant dishonesty of the Leave campaign, the way that all concerns were dismissed with the 'Project Fear' or 'the British public has had enough of experts' thought terminating cliches, and now the refusal to admit that the public have been lied to, and the new tendency to blame Remain voters and the EU for 'talking down the economy', or for requiring now what everyone knew would be the ca…

>People are critical of the flagrant dishonesty of the Leave campaign It's not like the remain campaign was much more honest, and the level of scaremongering was absurd. Beyond the pale is the number of complaints that the sky has, in fact, fallen in because the FTSE has plunged and the pound has dropped. As if people from Sunderland or rural Wales were concerned about the cost of holidaying the Riviera or taking a h…

> As if people from Sunderland or rural Wales were concerned about the cost of holidaying the Riviera or taking a hit on their non-existent stock portfolios.

Economic downturns and recessions disproportionately affect the poor[0] and disadvantaged[1].

[0] http://www.russellsage.org/research/special-initiatives/grea...

[1] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/disc...

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#75

Post by Brakenshire »

rkangel wrote: post #24
Brakenshire wrote: post #22

People are critical of the flagrant dishonesty of the Leave campaign, the way that all concerns were dismissed with the 'Project Fear' or 'the British public has had enough of experts' thought terminating cliches, and now the refusal to admit that the public have been lied to, and the new tendency to blame Remain voters and the EU for 'talking down the economy', or for requiring now what everyone knew would be the ca…

While you're probably right that the 'Leave' campaign is probably winning on the dishonesty front, there was a fairly sizeable departure from reality on both sides.

Yes, I think that's reasonable, the whole campaign was of a poor standard. Very negative, and with little explanation of the actual mechanisms of trade or governance underlying the question.

Having said that, there's plenty more you could bring up against the Leave side. The central claim of the imminent accession of Turkey in particular was an outright lie. And the general stoking up of xenophobia in order to get their way (followed by duplicity in trying to redefine their campaign the day after the vote had been taken).

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#76

Post by scholia »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #12
lordnacho wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't everyone practice this, every day? It's not exactly news that the media are powerful and biased.

> "Doesn't everyone practice this, every day?" Haha, hell no! Many people absorb what the media says with barely any questioning. Take this article for example, why is there no suggestion of Remain voters switching to Leave? Perhaps it's because the media coverage has been so one sided there's very little chance many people who voted to Remain would have need to question their convictions.

> Perhaps it's because the media coverage has been so one sided

All the most one-side media coverage was on the Leave side, wasn't it? The Sun, The Daily Mail and The Daily Express in particular -- the main mass-circulation tabloids -- were full of pro-Leave lies.

These are also papers that, not coincidentally, hate the BBC for being independent and excellent value for money.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#77

Post by Oletros »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #70
wanda wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid. You might get the same deal, but not a better one. It's just as irrational as an England supporter believing that England can win Euro 2016 after being knocked out. The Leave campaign and the referendum have both been engineered to rid Britain of both UKIP and Euroscepticism, one way or the other. The onl…

> "If you think you can get a better deal than the one we have now, you are irrational or uninformed, if not stupid." It's not all about economics. There are other reasons to Leave that have nothing to do with economics (or immigration, for that matter). Perhaps if you took the time into understanding the problems that exist in the EU you'd see this too. I'd be happy to explain further if you wanted to understand my…

> There are other reasons to Leave that have nothing to do with economics (or immigration, for that matter).

I would like to know those reasons, thanks. Almost what I have read from the leave camp are economics, immigration and some nebulous freedom.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#78

Post by dalke »

throwaway987611 wrote: post #27
airesQ wrote: post #6

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lords. Saying that the EU in undemocratic is just a meme. Then there is the question about the UK contributions. The UK does get its money worth, by the profit made trading in one of the biggest markets in the world (and with the countries that have trade deals…

> The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK. I beg to differ. The Eurocrats in Brussels who are unelected. Wanted Britian out immediately after the result. Merkel, on the other hand. Had the Car manufacturers on the phone screaming at her about the result. For them, the UK is 25% of their export market. I am sure other German manufacturers are not too happy with the result either. The UK is simply in a better…

> Now, British interests come first. If the UK wants to do something and France or another country doesn't like it. Now it's tough luck.

Will you still call it "British" if Scotland decides to leave the UK in favor of the EU?

Isn't there even worse luck for the UK should they want to sell something to the EU which doesn't meet EU standards, and France objects to the change? And won't British manufacturers who have both a domestic and mainland market have the overhead of following two sets of standards? I guess it's tough luck for them.

> scares the hell out of them!

Sitting here in Sweden, I have a feeling more of confusion than being scared. The longer the UK drags its heels on leaving, the more it feels like the UK just want to be the special snowflake in the center of everyone's attention.

We wouldn't mind Scotland joining the Nordic countries either. See http://satwcomic.com/part-of-the-gang and http://satwcomic.com/new-nordic for a comic view.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#79

Post by scholia »

awjr wrote: post #30
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

Although I voted remain, I almost voted leave. There are good, very good reasons to leave. There are very very good reasons to remain and 'fix' from the inside. However a friend on FB unfriended me after he declared all leavers were racist idiots. I suggested we need to understand why people voted leave. I tried to point out that the rise of the far right within Europe might be down to EU policies. I think there are…

> Of interest there are rumours that the EU is to announce a superstate http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum*

The Express is a provably unreliable source with no interest in telling the truth about anything beyond the football scores.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#80

Post by kristofferR »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #58
abpavel wrote: post #17

That mandate of the EU is, and always was, to prevent WW3. That is its raison d'être, and all decisions branch out from not wanting to repeat past mistakes, and end up like Serbia/Croatia in 1996. You can point out Swiss all you want, but Switzerland is as special is the City of London (not London city).

> "That mandate of the EU is, and always was, to prevent WW3." Sort of. Many see that start of the EU was the ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community). Robert Schuman proposed it in 1950 to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Commun... However, the ideas behind the EU started before the ECSC. Jean Monnet is regarded by many to be the 'father…

Winston Churchill also voiced support for an "United States of Europe" in 1946, right after WW2: https://archive.is/kOGDK
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