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Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

bbc.com

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Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#11

Post by ZenoArrow »

airesQ wrote: post #6

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lords. Saying that the EU in undemocratic is just a meme. Then there is the question about the UK contributions. The UK does get its money worth, by the profit made trading in one of the biggest markets in the world (and with the countries that have trade deals…

> "is just a meme"

Yeah, it's just a meme... just like we couldn't possibly trade in the EU without a trade deal is just a meme... or that all Leave campaigners are racist/stupid is just a meme...

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#12

Post by ZenoArrow »

lordnacho wrote: post #9
ZenoArrow wrote: post #3

I'm starting to think that the book Manufacturing Consent should be part of our school curriculum. I'd suggest seeing through media spin is a very useful life skill. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

Doesn't everyone practice this, every day? It's not exactly news that the media are powerful and biased.

> "Doesn't everyone practice this, every day?"

Haha, hell no! Many people absorb what the media says with barely any questioning. Take this article for example, why is there no suggestion of Remain voters switching to Leave? Perhaps it's because the media coverage has been so one sided there's very little chance many people who voted to Remain would have need to question their convictions.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#13

Post by vixen99 »

ciconia wrote: post #2

"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." - Frank Zappa

And what is the relevance of your point with regard to the link in question?

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#14

Post by jacquesm »

airesQ wrote: post #6

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lords. Saying that the EU in undemocratic is just a meme. Then there is the question about the UK contributions. The UK does get its money worth, by the profit made trading in one of the biggest markets in the world (and with the countries that have trade deals…

> Though to be fair, I would like to see a bit of compromise from the EU side of table. They are simply too intransigent.

This is part of the problem. It would not be fair. The UK already had a special position, with many advantages that other EU countries did not have as a compromise. A line was drawn and that apparently was not enough for the UK.

And no, not everybody wants to move to the UK.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#15

Post by ZenoArrow »

switch007 wrote: post #10
ZenoArrow wrote: post #3

I'm starting to think that the book Manufacturing Consent should be part of our school curriculum. I'd suggest seeing through media spin is a very useful life skill. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

The corrupt have already got their hands on education - 40% of schools are acadamies. I don't see Noam Chomsky being included in the curriculum, ever!

That's no reason not to try.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#16

Post by jabbernotty »

lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> the UK needs to trade with Europe, so they cannot ever really leave. Any deal done will end up looking like Switzerland

Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality.

I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. Going back on that would not be good for future voting or agreements. Swiss politicians did not, as far as I know, behave in any way similar to how some British politicians behave when it concerns the EU.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#17

Post by abpavel »

That mandate of the EU is, and always was, to prevent WW3. That is its raison d'être, and all decisions branch out from not wanting to repeat past mistakes, and end up like Serbia/Croatia in 1996. You can point out Swiss all you want, but Switzerland is as special is the City of London (not London city).

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#18

Post by IshKebab »

lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> And it's all come out AFTER the result.

The is actually a very good point. People are acting like it was all incredibly obvious that voting Leave was a terrible thing to do. But it wasn't obvious before the vote. At least not to the average voter.

A lot of the blame for that has to go to the media who printed anything the Leave campaign said even if it wasn't true (the £350m thing especially).

I don't think it's fair to totally blame the Leave voters for their bad decision. Besides it isn't totally clear now that it is that bad of a decision. The pound only dropped 6% (compared to 30% in 2008). And that's due to uncertainty more than anything else. It could easily go up again. In fact you can barely see the change on this graph:

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=10Y

> they don't get why vast swathes of ordinary people away from London would want to leave Europe.

To me it seems like most Leavers voted Leave because of some dissatisfaction with their life (too poor), and the Leave campaign successfully convinced them that it was because of Europe and immigrants. Or they just voted the way the government didn't want them to as a protest.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#19

Post by simonh »

jabbernotty wrote: post #16
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> the UK needs to trade with Europe, so they cannot ever really leave. Any deal done will end up looking like Switzerland Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality. I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. Going back on that would not be good for future voting or agreements. Swiss politicians did not, as far…

Switzerland held a referendum on stopping freedom of movement with the EU, which passed. The EU refused to even discuss it and the borders are still open and that's not going to change unless Switzerland wants to cancel all it's EU deals. Which isn't going to happen.

Legally, referendums in the UK are advisory only.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#20

Post by StavrosK »

danmaz74 wrote: post #4

> Boris Johnson said that British people would continue to be able to live, work and study in the EU, while at the same time the UK would be able to introduce a points-based system to control migration. I can hardly understand how can so many people believe such an obvious liar.

Wishful thinking.
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