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Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#11

Post by embik »

lucb1e wrote: post #9
sz4kerto wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, if we treat any claims about privacy and security with extreme skepticism (rightfully), then why do we trust Moxie and Facebook without being able to verify their claims? (I'm not saying that Moxie et al. are untrustworthy.)

Especially when we have open source alternatives like all Telegram clients that implement MTProto (Telegram's end to end encryption protocol).

MTProto isn't considered secure[0], so I'd rather trust someone (Moxie) who actually developed open source encryption[1] that is considered secure. I'm not blindly following Moxie here but I'd argue that it's in his own interest to only verify correct claims - reputation is your CV in cryptography. Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems.

[0] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr...

[1] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/libsignal-protocol-c

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#12

Post by lambdadmitry »

runn1ng wrote: post #5
Dzugaru wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telegram is one of my bets on a good, sane messaging platform for the future Why? It was made by VK (russian Facebook) devs and there are many concerns about its security.

Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/..., it has a great robot API, is continuously updated on all platforms, is adding features fast, it has a great GUI, it "just works" everywhere. Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal, but then synchronization between devices is PITA and the rate of new features is slow. It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel…

>It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel Durov after he escaped from Russia.

It's Durov's bullshit. Telegram is developed one floor beneath the VK office in Saint-Petersburg, Russia. Moreover, Durov himself often visits the office. Sources: [1] [2]

So yeah, between this and "MTProto is secure" I'm not sure if one can trust any other claim about Telegram's security (like "your chat logs are secure on our servers").

[1] https://tjournal.ru/p/durov-back-in-ussr (in Russian, sorry)

[2] I was there

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#13

Post by sz4kerto »

embik wrote: post #11
lucb1e wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when we have open source alternatives like all Telegram clients that implement MTProto (Telegram's end to end encryption protocol).

MTProto isn't considered secure[0], so I'd rather trust someone (Moxie) who actually developed open source encryption[1] that is considered secure. I'm not blindly following Moxie here but I'd argue that it's in his own interest to only verify correct claims - reputation is your CV in cryptography. Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. [0] https://security.stackexchange.c…

So you trust a person's word (believing that telling the truth is in his interest) more than an open client? I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me.

> Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems.

Why can't you imagine that e.g. Moxie has been blackmailed/etc. by some government authority? Again, I have no problem with Moxie's person in particular, I'm sure he would also agree that a single persons claims should not be trusted automatically.

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#16

Post by embik »

sz4kerto wrote: post #13
embik wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MTProto isn't considered secure[0], so I'd rather trust someone (Moxie) who actually developed open source encryption[1] that is considered secure. I'm not blindly following Moxie here but I'd argue that it's in his own interest to only verify correct claims - reputation is your CV in cryptography. Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. [0] https://security.stackexchange.c…

So you trust a person's word (believing that telling the truth is in his interest) more than an open client? I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me. > Someone actually cracking WhatsApp would be a serious issue for OpenWhisperSystems. Why can't you imagine that e.g. Moxie has been blackmailed/etc.…

> I'd really like Telegram to implement something that _is_ considered secure by many experts, but trusting _one_ experts word without any proof seems wrong to me.

Please read the link I provided before[0], it features links to a bunch of people saying Telegram is not secure[1][2][3][4]. It's not just Moxie. I actually have not seen any expert saying that Telegram is secure, but I'm interested in such thing. As the Telegram protocol is open, everybody is able to see how flawed it is. We know that. With a closed client that allegedly implements a secure encryption method (we also know it's good because it's open as well) there's a chance it doesn't work the way it's supposed to work, but there's also the chance it's working as intended. I'd rather take one percent chance over zero.

[0] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/49782/is-telegr...

[1] https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177.pdf

[2] https://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-ba...

[3] http://www.alexrad.me/discourse/a-264-attack-on-telegram-and...

[4] http://thoughtcrime.org/blog/telegram-crypto-challenge/

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#17

Post by skrowl »

santiagobasulto wrote: post #14

Is there any way to see the source code?

I have source up for a similar bot in C# - https://github.com/ScottRFrost/TelegramBot

It's pretty quick and dirty, but enough that you get the idea. It doesn't read HN, but it reads Beer Advocate, Bing, Calorie King, IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Weather Underground, and several others.

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#18

Post by skrowl »

sz4kerto wrote: post #7
embik wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/.. [...] > Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal [...] Actually, WhatsApp has implemented Signal's encryption and they worked together with Moxie Marlinspike (the developer of Signal) who verified those claims (or something along these lines. I'm not 100% sure this is how it happened, please take it with a grain…

BTW, if we treat any claims about privacy and security with extreme skepticism (rightfully), then why do we trust Moxie and Facebook without being able to verify their claims? (I'm not saying that Moxie et al. are untrustworthy.)

The skepticism is right. The person leading the charge for "but but Telegram rolled their own crypto, so you shouldn't use it" is actually one of the developers of Signal.

Not a single working proof of concept attack on telegram has been released and no one even claimed to have decrypted a single message.

I'm not saying Telegram is impervious to ever being cracked, but it's certainly not cracked yet or at all proven to be insecure.

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#19

Post by nicolapcweek94 »

embik wrote: post #6
runn1ng wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/..., it has a great robot API, is continuously updated on all platforms, is adding features fast, it has a great GUI, it "just works" everywhere. Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal, but then synchronization between devices is PITA and the rate of new features is slow. It was not done by VK. It was done by Pavel…

> Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/.. [...] > Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal [...] Actually, WhatsApp has implemented Signal's encryption and they worked together with Moxie Marlinspike (the developer of Signal) who verified those claims (or something along these lines. I'm not 100% sure this is how it happened, please take it with a grain…

yeah, but it's not cross device. web/desktop clients use your phone to talk to whatsapp's servers, while telegram is actually cross platform with working message sync

Re: Show HN: Telegram bot with filters to read Hacker News

#20

Post by hiq »

sz4kerto wrote: post #7
embik wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it's about the same level of security as other messengers like Facebook Messenger/Skype/.. [...] > Yeah, it's possible to have security like Signal [...] Actually, WhatsApp has implemented Signal's encryption and they worked together with Moxie Marlinspike (the developer of Signal) who verified those claims (or something along these lines. I'm not 100% sure this is how it happened, please take it with a grain…

BTW, if we treat any claims about privacy and security with extreme skepticism (rightfully), then why do we trust Moxie and Facebook without being able to verify their claims? (I'm not saying that Moxie et al. are untrustworthy.)

About e2e encryption in WhatsApp and the fact that it is closed-source software, see this thread for tptacek's views on the topic:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11432047

In short, "sources do not guarantee anything, and it's better to inspect the binary directly".

About Telegram, there have already been a few papers and so many articles pointing out its obvious security flaws that it is not even worth discussing anymore. Any search engine will return enough results for you to decide whether you should trust Telegram or not.

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