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Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

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Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#91

Post by Xylakant »

AndreyErmakov wrote: post #86
yardie wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made 50k in a more expensive city, Paris. From that my partner and I were able to buy a flat, put our son into a catholic school, travel (squeezyjets €20 flights), dine out, and save a little. This would not be possible anywhere in the US including SF. Child rearing costs are punitively high in the US. Medical was less than 10% of my salary. If my calculation is right the typical 2BR apartment in SF is $5000/month.…

>> I made 50k in a more expensive city, Paris. From that my partner and I were able to buy a flat, put our son into a catholic school Having a partner doubles your income. More, if French taxation works in any way similarly to the German system, then an official relationship puts you in a different taxation category. Having children moves you into yet another category where your net income noticeably improves. You're…

> Having a partner doubles your income.

That's only true if the partner earns about the same as you do. Being married (or in an official relationship) lowers your tax burden if you're earning unevenly (you're basically taxed based on the average of your wages in a system with a progressive tax rate), but that's all. It doesn't magic any money into existing. If you're both earning the same, you savings are exactly 0.

What having a partner really helps with is sharing costs. You only need a single flat (but probably a larger one), a single household, maybe share a car, ...

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#92

Post by Xylakant »

AndreyErmakov wrote: post #56
p4wnc6 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are lower wages good for the employees you're trying to attract? While some aspects of cost of living are low, others are not low at all. I guess if you're looking for nothing more than a temporary lifestyle involving enough money to go to concerts and eat at restaurants, the wage is fine for a younger person in Berlin. But it's a fantasy to believe you can effectively grow a company that way. You really…

A bit of feedback from someone who tried to make it in Germany with a 40K salary (in the south) and couldn't. It's just not doable. You need at least 60-70K to get started in medium towns, and around 80-90K for large expensive cities. Otherwise you either have to downgrade your standard of living to that common in third-world countries or accept it to live with a chronically empty bank account and most likely with a…

You really need to check up on what 3rd world country life style is. I used to live in Munich on a 45k wage and while I wasn't living in a huge flat in a posh area, I made a comfortable living. Granted, that's been a while ago, but even now my cousin as a policeman in Munich is far far from anything even resembling 3rd world. And he's certainly not earning 60k.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#93

Post by PopsiclePete »

Silicon Valley is ...nice...in certain areas...but overall, I don't like the US way of planning living areas - seems like that unless you have a lot money, you'll be living in some endless suburban sprawl and commuting 90 minutes to work in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

I know pay in Berlin must be lower compared to that in the Valley, but what's life in Berlin like if you're in software?

How's the job situation, relative pay, quality of life? Does anyone regret living there? How are the locals treating you?

I have an EU passport and already speak a little bit of German, if that matters....

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#94

Post by cyphunk »

rwallace wrote: post #26

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization. But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with mo…

The middle-class seems to be something tied to a different era, of industrialization and lifetime jobs. The dwindling middle-class may have more to do with our changing work behavior and desires, than it does cost of living?

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#95

Post by AndreyErmakov »

Xylakant wrote: post #92
AndreyErmakov wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of feedback from someone who tried to make it in Germany with a 40K salary (in the south) and couldn't. It's just not doable. You need at least 60-70K to get started in medium towns, and around 80-90K for large expensive cities. Otherwise you either have to downgrade your standard of living to that common in third-world countries or accept it to live with a chronically empty bank account and most likely with a…

You really need to check up on what 3rd world country life style is. I used to live in Munich on a 45k wage and while I wasn't living in a huge flat in a posh area, I made a comfortable living. Granted, that's been a while ago, but even now my cousin as a policeman in Munich is far far from anything even resembling 3rd world. And he's certainly not earning 60k.

Something like living in a flat infested with insects, walls not properly isolated making it pretty cold in winter with the heating set on maximum so you need to sleep in a sweater and a jacket, broken electrical wiring and the lights shutting down every now and again, a mixer that could not deliver a constant temperature water stream. Loud music, smoking, a construction place less than 100 meters away. Was my reality in Stuttgart. Couldn't find anything better. Or, more to the point, I could but that would necessitate a salary of 80-90K to be able to pay back whatever expenses such a rental would incur.

I know of course that even by German standards it's a luxury. Many working people (non-IT) can only afford a room.

Sometimes I think the government really needs to step in and cap the rental prices to 1/3 of the average salary in the area. Otherwise that inflation never ends.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#96

Post by cyphunk »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #59
fredley wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the extent to which the banking sector leaves might make an impact, but the collapse of sterling is probably going to drive more investment into London property, not less.

Unlikely while sterling is crashing. London prices will soon follow, as The Money leaves town. If there's a recovery it will be years from now, when there are easy profits to be made. Currently there are easy losses to be made, and no one wants that.

I think, from watching this happen in Berlin, most property investors are not looking for short gains. In Berlin I think the rent-protection laws pretty much force you to be a long term investor, if you are going to invest. I'd assume most property investors in London are also long term. As you mention, gains will be years from now. But unless the fundamentals of international capital change in those years, it's likely anyone with spare capital will find the 10 year wait on a London investment more than pays off during recovery.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#97

Post by nikanj »

huac wrote: post #84
auganov wrote: post #65

Europe never had a proper startup capital, or more accurately never did well at startups in general. It's not unlikely that there will just be less investment, nobody has to win. Given the very small numbers, every European country [1] has a lot of potential to multiply their startup output. I doubt any trade deals or policy changes are going to bring it about. Not happening without major cultural change IMO. One mig…

I kinda agree with a 'cultural' factor - Europeans are often more risk-averse than Americans or Israeli's, and starting a startup is definitely risky! I'm not sure how the Nordic countries get around that though. A stronger social safety net is probably negatively correlated with risk-aversion.

Traditionally, in Europe the state saves for your retirement, and in the US you save for your retirement.

This leads to the US general population having much more savings in their disposal, enabling both bootstrapping via founder savings, and seed funding from friends, family and fools.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#99

Post by germanier »

huac wrote: post #83
TorKlingberg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very common for Swedish startups to incorporate in the UK, even if you keep the office in Sweden. It is easier and cheaper to incorporate there, and you get better access to London VCs. I wonder if that will get more difficult.

Were London VC's unable to invest in Swedish-incorporated startups before?

Maybe unwilling. There is no legal problem with doing so (apart from the additional hassle of having to know about a different set of laws.) This is similar to the Delaware situation.
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