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Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

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Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#31
post #19

In the meantime while Nordics are home to just 3% of Europe’s population, it has created more than 50% of Europe’s Billion Dollar exits since 2005. If there is startup capital in Europe, it's Stockholm. https://medium.com/creandum-family/the-nordics-in-context-th...

Part of that is mobile games companies like Supercell with Clash of the Clans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercell_(video_game_company) ... Hay Day, Angry Birds and others. Basically out of the ashes of Nokia, a bunch of mobile gaming companies has sprung up and to some extent are dominating the industry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_game_companies_... - more at https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/10/from-nokias-snake-game-to-... - apparently they generate 1.8 Billion in total

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#32

Was London at any point the startup capital of Europe? Maybe it was the banking capital of Europe, but that time is over now.

From a UK perspective, we've largely thrown our eggs into one basket with London. It's the financial capital, but it's also the best place to work if you're involved in design, programming, recruitment, law, etc. With so much going on in London, it's only natural that you set up shop there if you want to play in the big leagues, or to move to London when you reach a certain size and want to work with the big players. I imagine funding also plays a huge part in the startup scene in London too. It's where the money is, after all.

Purely anecdotal, but London is regularly referred to as the FinTech capital of Europe, and it often seems to be because London doesn't have a lot of startup success stories to boast about. For me, the startup buzz in the UK tends to be smaller outfits away from London, either close to top universities (Oxbridge) or in larger cities with an existing digital culture (Bristol, Manchester).

Again, purely anecdotal, but I know a few people that have moved from London to Berlin, and they couldn't be happier.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#33
post #11
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of funding, yes. It's also the fintech capital of the world. Regarding being the banking capital: it's been two business days. You might be jumping the gun just a little. ;-)

Regarding being the banking Ng capital: it's been two business days. You might be jumping the gun just a little. I strongly suspect the UK won't be able to continue any passporting[1] arrangements because it would greatly benefit Germany's financial sector if foreign banks had to establish a European presence to trade within the EU. That is an existential threat to London's finance industry. Obviously it depends on t…

MiFID 2 will make most of this talk about passporting a side show during the renegotiation.

The EU FFT is a prime example of why finance in Frankfurt or Paris is unlikely to be in a position to compete with London, NY, Hong Kong, or Singapore.

An indication of this will be on July 4, when LSE votes on the Deutsche Boerse merger.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration system for skilled workers is not going to change. If the UK actually does leave the EU, they'll replace EU rules of skilled immigration with something similar. The UK is a knowledge economy, it will always be open to skilled immigrants. Yet people actually believe that the UK will close down all immigration. It's absurd.

I could hop on the next plane to London and legally start working today. If they restrict freedom of movement at all that is going to fall and replaced by some process to obtain work authorization (how else could they distinguish between "skilled" and "unskilled" workers?). If that system looks in any way similiar to the one non-EU citizens have to go through today I wouldn't call that change insignificant. Having to…

> I could hop on the next plane to London and legally start working today.

That's exactly the point, and something I don't think many British people realise. (I don't think Americans etc realise it either, but I don't expect them to.)

Moving to work in a different EU country requires what I'd guess is a similar amount of paperwork as moving between US states.

- Register your address with the local government (which may lead to an id card, tax registration etc) - Update your driving license, if applicable - Tell the old country you'll stop paying tax there (may lead to a tax refund)

These are the same kinds of processes as are used when a child is born, a teenager gets a first job, or an adult moves house. Nothing requires permission, nothing can be refused.

Additionally, there are agreements for things like state healthcare, pensions and out-of-work benefits.

If the UK raises barriers, then London will be less appealing for other European citizens.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#35
post #17

This was shared earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11983154 > I'll repeat the comment I gave there: >I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low. >With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned. >There's cer…

Wages being low is a good thing, no? CoL is significantly lower too which is great.

In what way are lower wages good for the employees you're trying to attract? While some aspects of cost of living are low, others are not low at all. I guess if you're looking for nothing more than a temporary lifestyle involving enough money to go to concerts and eat at restaurants, the wage is fine for a younger person in Berlin. But it's a fantasy to believe you can effectively grow a company that way. You really do need to hire experienced people, often with families and expectations for a higher quality of living conditions, etc., who aren't particularly interested in the youth culture offerings of Berlin.

For these people, earning ~ 50k euros / year in Berlin is a way, way, way, way, way worse deal than earning ~ 200k dollars in San Francisco, despite SF's insane costs. You just simply cannot do anything with 50k euros/year in Berlin unless you have no outside obligations and are happy spending the money of minor lifestyle perks.

I'm surprised that any of this is even controversial. The same is true for start-ups almost anywhere else in continental Europe too. To a very limited extent there are some companies in Amsterdam that actually pay a "real" wage (i.e. you can support a family, enjoy life, and save for retirement), and some across Switzerland, but not many.

Thinking in terms of "yay, cost of living is low so I don't need much of a salary" is the classic immature analysis of a recent grad who looks at it more like a program for teaching English is southeast Asia than like they are actually working a job, building a career, etc.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#36
post #17

This was shared earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11983154 > I'll repeat the comment I gave there: >I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low. >With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned. >There's cer…

Living is also not as pricey tho

It doesn't balance out at all. If you care about being a very successful start-up, then you are implicitly competing for international talent, whether you like it or not. The same people choosing to work in SV are the people you should be trying to convince to work in Berlin.

Saying they get ~ 50k euros/year but don't worry, the cost of living is low is a universal non-starter. That's just simply not competitive. The cost of living is not so low that a person can reduce their salary to around 1/3 of what they could make in New York or SF and expect to have the same quality of life.

You're basically handcuffing one arm behind your back by basing yourself in Berlin (or many other places) because now your pool of applicants is limited to only those people who have some ulterior reason to be interested in living in Berlin and are willing to make a Faustian bargain regarding huge reduction in their wage (even relative to cost of living).

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#37

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization. But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with mo…

Is housing any cheaper in Dublin?

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#38
post #30

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization. But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with mo…

The house-pricing problem is not due to startups (although this has put pressure on/gentrified a few small areas). The startup scene is a very small part of London as a whole. It is the combination of under-investment in new housing, building the wrong types of new housing (vast luxury flats instead of smaller, affordable units), and selling large amounts of it to foreign buyers as investments (often left unoccupied)…

Oh, you're right, startups aren't the main cause of the problem, but anything that moves out of London will help a bit, and it would certainly be good if people who want to create or work in startups had better options.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#39

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization. But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with mo…

Is housing any cheaper in Dublin?

Yes. The housing situation in Dublin is not as good as I'd like it to be, but it is significantly better than London, even if that is damning with faint praise.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#40
I think Berlin and Stockholm are two of the front runners of being "Startup Capital" (whatever that is suppose to mean), having lived in both I can offer some reflections, IMHO of course.

Stockholm is pretty great when it comes to technical and investment maturity. We blew through and did all the stupid dotcom stuff in late 90's, while some have been repeated many successful entrepreneurs learned from that time. Internet access has been really good leading to a lot of good technical talent. It's a beautiful city that want's to be "international" and overall things are very polished. Sweden's also has a track record of producing a few gigantic hits such as Spotify, Soundcloud, Klarna, Skype, Minecraft etc etc.

On the downside the housing situation is insane and everyone has borrowed to the hilt trying to keep up with the ever increasing prices. You can't get hold of an apartment without buying. It's also a pretty expensive place to live. It get's pretty dark & pissy in the winters but summer's are great. I used say that living in Stockholm is 9 months of wondering why the hell you live here and three months where you get the answer.

Berlin in contrast feels like something very unique in Europe and Germany. It's like melting pot of different countries and not quite grown up mentality. Housing is still relatively accessible and affordable, there's even rental contracts to be had. Food and drink is overall cheaper. The startup spirit in Berlin still felt a bit naive when I was there, like a first wave city, but it's big and enthusiastic. However they seem to struggle to product big hits outside of their own country. Maybe the difference between Sweden and Germany is that Sweden is so little we have to go international, and also we're more anglofied. Big companies generally haven't been so big on Berlin since they don't have an international airport, leaving the city wide open for everyone else. On the downside Berlin is a bit meh when it comes to scenery and nature.

Outside the tech scene the English in Berlin is pretty bad and some look down at any not speaking German. Swedes grow up with English and most love every opportunity to use it.

I think there's a good bet Berlin will start to dominate as a "Silicon Valley of Europe", if nothing else because there's a vacuum there that can be filled, and it will become even more international than german. Even Swedes look at Berlin simply because it's cheaper and more accessible. It also has a bit bigger scene when it comes to small "startuppy" kinda ventures while Stockholm dominates on the more serious ones.

Working as an employee seems to suck in Berlin because everyone is looking for a job and job's pay poorly. But if you work for yourself and/or with investment money that doesn't matter and you're in a good position to leverage that money.

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