Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade • Hacker News Board

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#131

Post by holtalanm » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

PKop wrote: post #95

pavel_lishin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those technically illiterate users are going to have trouble with Windows 10. My stepfather is in his 70s, and I had to help him set up the weather app - and it took me about ten minutes how to figure out how to set a default location! 10 is different enough from 7 that they're going to have to learn a lot of new habits - and while that's just the nature of modern life, some people are going to suffer significantly m…

Have you tried ChromeOS? My grandfather is in his mid 80's. I've been helping him with his computer(s) for years. In the last year, I switched him over to a Chromebook, after trying and failing to switch him to Windows 10 (wasn't compatible with his old computer)... and since everything he does involves websites and bookmarks anyways. It's the easiest time he's ever had using a computer. No random update notification…

I'll second that.

I own a Chromebook, and it is my favorite machine to use out of all of the laptops I own. If I need Windows for something, i just Remote Desktop into my desktop downstairs.

My Chromebook is set up with Crouton, so I have a full linux environment on it for development.

Storage was an issue, but I swapped the original ssd out for a 256GB ssd. Now, it is pretty much a cheap ultrabook.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#132

Post by snuxoll » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #112

snuxoll wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the Windows 10 installer does a compatibility check before performing the upgrade. My friend was trying to upgrade to Windows 10 last week but it kept denying him saying his "display is not compatible". I logged into his machine and saw he had an old GoToMyPC monitor driver installed that was causing him grief, uninstalled it and away the upgrade went. It's not perfect by any means, and "compatibility" ch…

That's great for systems which are simply too old to handle the upgrade, but Windows has an ugly history of releasing upgrades which are uncaught breaking changes for some machines. I think release-day Windows 7, 8, 8.1, and 10 all broke wifi connectivity for a large swath of users. At least one Windows 7 patch bricked a large number of Asus motherboards, and the Windows 10 upgrade did the same to a smaller number of…

I didn't say it was perfect, but I would be surprised if it didn't block more potential issues than it missed.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#133

Post by holtalanm » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #124

PKop wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried ChromeOS? My grandfather is in his mid 80's. I've been helping him with his computer(s) for years. In the last year, I switched him over to a Chromebook, after trying and failing to switch him to Windows 10 (wasn't compatible with his old computer)... and since everything he does involves websites and bookmarks anyways. It's the easiest time he's ever had using a computer. No random update notification…

I haven't, but I probably should. One problem is that they live halfway across the country, so I wouldn't be on hand to help him adjust to the new OS.

There really isn't much adjusting needed if they have used a browser before.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#134

Post by arximboldi » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #54

themartorana wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings about this. I'm with you 100% on having the explicit opportunity to opt out of updates like this. That said, a large swath of Windows users are not nearly as technically literate as you and your mother are, and automatically helping people forward (if for nothing else, security fixes and ongoing support) is a Good Thing in my book (so long as it's free, and it is). There is no doubt there are co…

I'm sympathetic both ways on this one. I think Microsoft went "too far" but I also agree that we don't want another "XP situation" with Windows 7. Effectively having 20%+ of the market on a super old OS holding back the industry and less secure. Microsoft claim they're planning to avoid this in the future by no longer releasing named new OS's, and instead just update Windows 10 for "free" forever. Basically the same…

"Holding back the industry"

No!

I think we, the software industry, are very irresponsible when it comes to __planned obsolescence__ [1]. Computers from 10 years ago are very capable of doing most things common users want to do nowadays. However, many modern operating systems and applications make these computers unusable.

We are forcing users to upgrade software, and because of all the layers of cruft accumulated in this software, they are then forced to upgrade their hardware too. This just adds to a spiral of consumerism that is going to destroy our planet.

Like most of us, I like developing with the latest high level fancy cutting edge stack; but we have to remember that it's not the society's duty to empower the tech industry but the other way around. It is our role to help people solve people's their problems, and in ways that are effective socially and ecologically and does not create waste. This also means, making sure that hardware does not become obsolete because of our carelessness, lazyness or selfabsorpion as software makers.

Also, alternatives do exist.

I know someone in Cordoba (Spain) that recently started a __slow computing__ cooperative, inspired by this article [2]. His goal is to bring tech experts and ordinary people together to build custom solutions adapted to their needs. They have users go to them and do an interview with them. Then, they make a GNU/Linux and libre software installation for them, often reusing old hardware, adapted to their personal needs, and do the teaching necessary. I find this a very interesting approach, that solves the security problem both by installing updated software that does not create hardware obsolescence, and educating users so they regain control of their machines.

There is no valid excuse for Microsoft here. Your argument is the perfect example of how proprietary software puts end users as servants to the interest of owners of the proprietary code that control their machines.

[1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Planned_obsolescence [2] https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourse...

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#135

Post by Nullabillity » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #88

benbristow wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What botnet? Take off your Tinfoil hat.

Calling it a botnet is meant to highlight that it's MS who is ultimately in control and a machine running W10 obeys them before the user. If we're going for accuracy, it should probably be called spyware.

Spyware would be accurate if it was just the telemetry, botnet is correct since Windows Update essentially acts as a C&C system.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#136

Post by wvenable » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #119

snuxoll wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the Windows 10 installer does a compatibility check before performing the upgrade. My friend was trying to upgrade to Windows 10 last week but it kept denying him saying his "display is not compatible". I logged into his machine and saw he had an old GoToMyPC monitor driver installed that was causing him grief, uninstalled it and away the upgrade went. It's not perfect by any means, and "compatibility" ch…

> This is why the Windows 10 installer does a compatibility check before performing the upgrade. Which would be nice, if it worked 100%. But it doesn't, so that's a problem for non-technical users. In fact, the Win10 upgrade on my Win 8.1 laptop "helpfully" rolled-back the touchpad driver from the latest driver designed for Win 8.1 -- which works fine with Win 10 -- to the original Win 8 driver, which doesn't functio…

I had this exact problem as well. I had to download the old version of the driver just to uninstall it and then I installed the latest Windows 10 driver. Problem solved. But it was the one thing that went wrong with it.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#137

Post by mikeash » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #22

soggypretzels wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose they mean taking Apple's "We know what is good for you better than you do" approach. While Apple currently does not force OS upgrades, they do make a lot of decisions for their users without giving their users an opt-out or a way to roll back. This idea top-down, walled garden is pretty central to contemporary Apple.

Like what? Give examples. Apple makes design choices that are very opinionated on how you should use software and internals are hard to see, but they don't make decisions for you.

One obvious example is the fact that Apple does not allow you to install anything but the latest OS (and possibly one minor revision back) on an iOS device. OS upgrade kills your battery life or makes a critical third-party app stop working? Too bad, so sad, sucks to be you, there's no way to go back.

They don't force you to upgrade, but they artificially block the ability to go back.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#138

Post by coderdude » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

gldev wrote: post #21

If they promise to remove the botnet entirely i'd be in.

Ahh, HN. I come for the articles but I stay for its cringe-worthy commentary.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#139

Post by intopieces » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

pdx wrote: post #93

wvenable wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just did the Windows 10 upgrade on my laptop and at no point could I start the upgrade without explicitly clicking a button. In addition, the process starts by immediately rebooting (after downloading via Windows update and asking you to start it).

That's a really interesting story. Let me tell you another one. Both my wife's and my son's computers updated automatically, with no button presses on their parts, even after them pressing "do not update" on all the nag screens for the past several months.

On the pop-ups that appear on my Windows 7 machine, there is no button they says "Do Not Update"; both buttons (Update now, update later) lead the system to download and install Windows 10. That both of your users report explicitly clicking a button that references update makes me suspicious that they in fact just clicked the wrong button.

Sneaky of Microsoft, but I'm having trouble buying these tales of the OS going rogue. I just haven't seen any way for that to happen.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#140

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #92

givinguflac wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Support it if you want, but you seriously think it's OK for the PC to restart in the middle of a call? What if the user is doing something mission critical; it's acceptable to just wait an hour (or more likely several) to get back to work because "MS knows best"?? There is nothing to stop it from just doing it all over again either. I will never use Windows again because of this behavior.

My biggest aggravation with Windows is the pattern of unapproved restarts. Sure, there's usually a setting to disable it, and a popup to delay it, but it's not really enough. The setting appears unreliable at best, and the popup is useless when it pops under fullscreen programs. It really only takes one ill-timed restart to damn an OS forever, especially when the restart is chased by lengthy (and impossible to declin…

The interesting thing here is that Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 all improved the Windows Update restart timing logic and made it more transparent. (There's a section that states "A restart is planned, Windows has determined the most likely idle time to try the restart is 3:43am" now, for instance.)

In this case it's Windows 7's Restart logic that is old/bad (and long has been), not Windows 10, but Windows 10 of course is getting blamed for it, not Windows 7.

It's another reason people should stop worrying and upgrade to Windows 10. ;)