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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#221

Post by Chris2048 »

rndmio wrote: post #115
_Understated_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.

> talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic

Then democracy itself is too

> The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself

MPs are elected

> they don't impose on us because we are part of it

Not for much longer.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#222

Post by Chris2048 »

_Understated_ wrote: post #87
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

There are points where I almost feel there is a reverse-physiology campaign going on, pushing people towards 'leave' by pissing them off.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#223

Post by DanBC »

Nursie wrote: post #205
DanBC wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accusations of xenophobia are hard to avoid when the anti-immigration debate has been led by the National Front ("Go home pakis"); the BNP (Nazi salutes); Britain First (an incoherent but unequivocally fascist ideology). We've already seen a rise in xenophobic, racist, hate crime. To use UKIPs line, why aren't moderate anti-immigrationists condemning this violence?

They are, see my other posts in this thread.

Some of them are.

https://twitter.com/sima_kotecha/status/747404962242633728

UKIPer in that thread calls Sima Kotecha a liar, manufacturing fake outrage, when she describes someone calling her a paki.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#224

Post by rlpb »

vmateixeira wrote: post #189
rlpb wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've fallen victim to media spin. Farage did not claim this. In case you read the articles differently, Farage wasn't part of the "Leave campaign". He was part of the Leave.EU campaign. The media want to portray Farage as a hypocrite, so they write their articles to make it seem like he is. But understand the distinction between the two different campaigns, read the article carefully, and you'll see that the articl…

I don't like the independent but it seems to disagree with you.. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-refe...

I'm just critically interpreting the facts as presented in articles you linked, which as I pointed out do not support your claim. At least your newest citation allows readers to judge for themselves. I think it's a stretch to claim that it was a campaign promise [from Farage], but that's up to you to decide.

I voted Remain, BTW, and don't support UKIP. But I'm not prepared to grab pitchforks on a tenuous claim of hypocrisy either.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#225

Post by ZeroGravitas »

arethuza wrote: post #214
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the Leave campaigners do actually subscribe to these libertarian views, including the only UKIP MP. But they clearly believed so strongly, that they didn't think it was wrong to stoke immigration fears to win, and then turn round and explain that actually, free market economics suggests that low wage immigration is actually a good thing. This is playing with fire, and may end tragically.

I'm actually expecting a future government to turn round and refuse to replace the funding that used to come via the EU - as the economy will be in a bad state and we don't have the money anymore and, the main reason, which is pure ideology.

Certainly in the areas that don't consistently vote for the government making the decisions anyway.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#226

Post by ZeroGravitas »

throwaway049 wrote: post #75
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

Interesting to note that the Scottish Indepndence referendum was open to non-Scots living in the country, and it tipped the balance below 50%, but if set up in the same way as the EU vote, they'd have met have had a majority.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#227

Post by MagnumOpus »

_Understated_ wrote: post #87
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

> Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave.

So it was "just" xenophobia and bigotry. That's all fine then. Carry on.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#228

Post by jeeva »

vixen99 wrote: post #177
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

It depends on what you understand by citizenship. As non-Brits they don't have a long-term interest in the future of Britain. For instance, we can assume they will likely have family connections elsewhere. They can leave when they like. They are in the UK for what they can get out of it, as of now. That is not meant pejoratively. It is what I or anyone else would do. If we have the freedom to do so, we plot a life tr…

I guess my "Oh jeez, really?" thing for the weekend was this quote:

> “I said to him, so where’s the plan? Can we see the Brexit plan now?” Islam told Botting, without naming the MP specifically.

> He said the pro-Leave Tory replied: “There is no plan. The Leave campaign don’t have a post-Brexit plan.”

> According to Islam, the MP then pointed toward the Houses of Parliament and said: “Number 10 should have had a plan”.

https://twitter.com/PED7/status/747063871765086208?ref_src=t...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#229

Post by Chris2048 »

DanBC wrote: post #186
collyw wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.

Accusations of xenophobia are hard to avoid when the anti-immigration debate has been led by the National Front ("Go home pakis"); the BNP (Nazi salutes); Britain First (an incoherent but unequivocally fascist ideology). We've already seen a rise in xenophobic, racist, hate crime. To use UKIPs line, why aren't moderate anti-immigrationists condemning this violence?

Those groups are always going to support immigration controls - what has that got to do with anyone else?

> We've already seen a rise in xenophobic, racist, hate crime.

Have we?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#230

Post by vmateixeira »

Nursie wrote: post #217
vmateixeira wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I got you now and appreciate your answer. But let's be honest.. What's that "taking our country back" all about? I'm not saying that this is all voters general opinion, but it sure looks like the majority's. I don't hear anyone coming up with plausible arguments and I really wanted to hear them.

Oh I'm not going to claim there aren't racists and xenophobes around. I'm outraged that all leave leanings are characterised that way. There are many good arguments and many bad ones that don't involve hatred of foreigners. "Take our country back" would, to me, meaning regaining full legislative control. Yes, this includes immigration, and yes I would limit that based on skills and an annual quota. I don't believe fo…

Well, I do believe that's racism. Why else would you limit someone coming over their skills? And I'm not saying that feeling racist is abnormal. I'd just prefer people to cut the crap.

And I'm actually curious about what would those skills be as I don't believe that's a reasonable approach..

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