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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#181

Post by vmateixeira »

Nursie wrote: post #147
vmateixeira wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?

Nope. I didn't vote leave, for a start. The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU. That's what I'm saying.

Ok, I got you now and appreciate your answer. But let's be honest.. What's that "taking our country back" all about?

I'm not saying that this is all voters general opinion, but it sure looks like the majority's. I don't hear anyone coming up with plausible arguments and I really wanted to hear them.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#182

Post by cromulent »

Nursie wrote: post #174
cromulent wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely different to the UK situation though - the GG was acting according to the Australian constitution. UK law is obviously different. The Australian constitution only underwent a tiny change in 1977 that doesn't change the GG's role. I think it would indeed "fly".

Oh I meant in Australia, I don't think another GG intervention would work there, even if the law hadn't been adjusted. Not sure exactly what might happen here.

If the situation was repeated (a PM who cannot pass supply bills and won't follow advice to dissolve), then the GG would absolutely do the same thing again. Why would they not? What has changed?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#183

Post by gsnedders »

sievebrain wrote: post #96
onion2k wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

each one carries with it the implication that a direct democratic mandate, to leave the EU, is ignored There is no such mandate, implied or otherwise. The referendum was advisory. Legally there is nothing compelling the government to act on the result.

Legally the UK is still ruled by the Queen. That situation would change in a heartbeat if the Queen actually tried to rule.

That's less clear: it depends on how she goes about it. Consider this:

a) She convinces the Leader of the Commons to bring a motion to dismiss parliament (under the 2011 Fixed Term Parliaments Act this requires a 2/3rds majority).

b) She convinces the members of the Privy Council to form a National Coalition, and to stand as such for election on a manifesto centred on EU membership.

Alternatively, she finds someone who can command the confidence of the House of Commons across party lines, and gets agreement across party lines (likely through the Privy Council) to support the appointment, and duly appoints them Prime Minister (this is roughly how Churchill became Prime Minister in 1940, with no election held since 1935 and none would be held till 1945). The cross-party Government then formed can then seek a mandate to remain in the EU in a number of ways (such as then falling to an election or a second referendum).

One shouldn't understate the amount of influence the Queen can have, and maintain, if she plays her cards right.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#184

Post by _Understated_ »

vmateixeira wrote: post #133
_Understated_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

So.. what were your motives?

Democratic control. That was it. I knew that it would have a negative effect on the economy short term but I wanted the control to be in the hands of the people I elected.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#185

Post by sievebrain »

kuschku wrote: post #145
sievebrain wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU Commission has already said flat out there would have to be a new application. That application would certainly be vetoed by either the Spanish (catalan issues) or the Germans (Scotland has a bigger deficit than Greece).

The current mood portrayed by Berlin in German media is very pro-Scotland. And the mood of Madrid, too.

If there's one thing we should all be learning from this it's that the 'respectable' media around the world is controlled by people who have little or nothing in common with large chunks of the population and simply cannot be trusted to reliably report on the matter of the EU. The non-tabloid media in the UK were almost united in the idea that leaving the EU was unthinkable, and even post-vote are now in a state of absolute denial about it.

If you want to know what's really going on then the best tool available is still opinion polling (ideally combined with on-the-street interviews to get additional depth).

Polling in Germany is showing rapidly rising anti-Euro feeling since August 2015, if we take AfD support as a proxy for "we don't want to bail out the feckless deficit countries anymore". AfD polling shifts are on a very smooth upward trajectory when averaged and the AfD is anti-Euro.

Given this trajectory and the grumbling the Greek bailouts caused it would be very difficult to convince the Germans to allow the normal EU rules on deficits in joining countries to be broken: they are already slapping down suggestions from Italy that Brexit means austerity policies must be loosened. Why should Germans pay for the Scots?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#186

Post by DanBC »

collyw wrote: post #125
_Understated_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.

Accusations of xenophobia are hard to avoid when the anti-immigration debate has been led by the National Front ("Go home pakis"); the BNP (Nazi salutes); Britain First (an incoherent but unequivocally fascist ideology).

We've already seen a rise in xenophobic, racist, hate crime.

To use UKIPs line, why aren't moderate anti-immigrationists condemning this violence?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#187

Post by _Understated_ »

ck425 wrote: post #118
_Understated_ wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the last indeyref the budget figures were plucked out the air and with the oil price collapse the hole in the finances is massive. How is Scotland going to finance it this time? FYI I am Scottish, living in Scotland and I voted out!

Out of curiosity, why?

I wanted out of the EU to have control of the future of our country in the hands of the people we elected... I have no control over the elites in Europe.

That was the primary (possibly only!) factor in my decision.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#188

Post by _Understated_ »

sievebrain wrote: post #180
ck425 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You presume the referendum will be based on sound analysis. If there's one thing the EUref has shown it's that you don't need sound analysis. It also depends heavily on how the UK does in the coming year. The UK needs to be economically and politically powerful enough that it's not worth giving up for self determination. It doesn't need to be a better deal, it has to be better enough to defeat romantic notions of ind…

There you go: assuming the analysis of leave voters was not sound. Many voters made a very straightforward analysis: "the EU means I compete against an essentially infinite supply of labour, I can't do that, therefore we should get out of the EU so we can restrict immigration again". You may not agree with this reasoning or you may feel the various other benefits of the EU outweigh them in your personal circumstances…

> The Scots may not like it but their country is subsidised by the UK to a huge degree.

^This!

I am a Scot, living in Scotland and I voted out (and against independence) but a great many of my peers over the years wanted independence "because Westminster/England".

It was the most childish of reasons.

The economic argument wasn't there the last time and it absolutely isn't there this time but last time it wasn't pressed much... this time it will be but once the Indy Propaganda machine gets going then all bets are off.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#189

Post by vmateixeira »

rlpb wrote: post #154
vmateixeira wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, here you go... http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/nigel-farage-labe... http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7943774.ece/ALTERNATE...

You've fallen victim to media spin. Farage did not claim this. In case you read the articles differently, Farage wasn't part of the "Leave campaign". He was part of the Leave.EU campaign. The media want to portray Farage as a hypocrite, so they write their articles to make it seem like he is. But understand the distinction between the two different campaigns, read the article carefully, and you'll see that the articl…

I don't like the independent but it seems to disagree with you..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-refe...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#190

Post by gsnedders »

simonh wrote: post #12
jamescun wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. My view is that Scotland CAN veto, but Westminster can override that veto. It creates a brilliant scenario for Scottish politicians, particularly those who seek independence; by vetoing they gain the support of their constituents while kicking the toxic can down the road to Westminster politicians, who should respect the results of the referendum, creating louder calls for a second Scottish referendum.

They can only veto it if the legislation comes before the Scottish parliament for review, and it won't. What they can do is pass resolutions in Scottish law incompatible with Brexit that Westminster will have to repeal or get struck down in the courts.

> What they can do is pass resolutions in Scottish law incompatible with Brexit that Westminster will have to repeal or get struck down in the courts.

Acts of Parliament cannot be struck down in the courts, in general. This is one of the cornerstones of Parliamentary Supremacy. I believe the only case where they can be is where they are found in contradiction to obligations of the EU treaties.

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