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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#141

Post by kuschku »

robhu wrote: post #123
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"

That argument also justifies dissolving the UK:

Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland

Or even dissolving England.

Decisions about London should be taken in London.

In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad".

Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#142

Post by crusso »

jaredklewis wrote: post #117
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

All fine points, but generally in democracy, the time to educate the voting public and raise issues like disenfranchisement is before the vote, not after. Obviously, the losing side of any politcal battle will always want a redo. And obviously the winners will always prefer to keep the results as they are. Letting the losers try again until they win is like a DOS attack. Btw, I totally agree though that leaving somet…

Did it require a 2/3 vote to join the EU?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#143

Post by vmateixeira »

Nursie wrote: post #70
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?

Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#144

Post by arethuza »

vkou wrote: post #51
abpavel wrote: post #18

Any outcome other than UK leaving the EU would go against democratically elected decision, in essence suspending democracy.

The public isn't ever asked to vote on wars, trade deals, etc. When it is asked to shoot itself in the foot with a non-binding referendum, overturning it would be no different. In a representative democracy, all you vote for is your representative. The rest is politics.

Exactly, if we had a consultative democracy we'd probably have the death penalty!

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#145

Post by kuschku »

sievebrain wrote: post #97
ck425 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might not have to leave the uk and rejoin. There's precedence for regions of countries not being in the EU while other are. Additionally the UK is a union between Scotland and England so we'd technically not be leaving, but choosing to break the union, at which point the UK ceases to exist and becomes Scotland and England (and it's associated region/principalities etc). Since the UK is the member of the EU (not it…

The EU Commission has already said flat out there would have to be a new application. That application would certainly be vetoed by either the Spanish (catalan issues) or the Germans (Scotland has a bigger deficit than Greece).

The current mood portrayed by Berlin in German media is very pro-Scotland. And the mood of Madrid, too.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#146

Post by fauigerzigerk »

sievebrain wrote: post #97
ck425 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might not have to leave the uk and rejoin. There's precedence for regions of countries not being in the EU while other are. Additionally the UK is a union between Scotland and England so we'd technically not be leaving, but choosing to break the union, at which point the UK ceases to exist and becomes Scotland and England (and it's associated region/principalities etc). Since the UK is the member of the EU (not it…

The EU Commission has already said flat out there would have to be a new application. That application would certainly be vetoed by either the Spanish (catalan issues) or the Germans (Scotland has a bigger deficit than Greece).

Germany and many other EU countries (and also, by the way, most European citizens) want European integration to continue.

If an advanced, liberal, english speaking country like Scotland declares its wish to remain or join the EU, that could be seen as a welcome vote in favor of the European idea.

I think it is in Germany's (and Spain's) interest to woo Scotland and make it as easy as possible for them to remain in the EU or rejoin in a seamless fashion.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#147

Post by Nursie »

vmateixeira wrote: post #143
Nursie wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?

Did you just say that the hate of the remain was what made you vote leave in first place? Really?

Nope.

I didn't vote leave, for a start.

The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU.

That's what I'm saying.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#148

Post by Nursie »

crusso wrote: post #142
jaredklewis wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All fine points, but generally in democracy, the time to educate the voting public and raise issues like disenfranchisement is before the vote, not after. Obviously, the losing side of any politcal battle will always want a redo. And obviously the winners will always prefer to keep the results as they are. Letting the losers try again until they win is like a DOS attack. Btw, I totally agree though that leaving somet…

Did it require a 2/3 vote to join the EU?

It certainly didn't for any of the major treaties setting up the EU - most were put in place by governments with nowhere near a 50% vote-share.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#149

Post by kuschku »

pmontra wrote: post #93

Seen from another EU country, saddened as I am by the UK leaving the Union, my take on this is: 1) Even if the referendum is advisory, given the importance of the issue it would be difficult to dismiss it and do as if it didn't happen. I'd be embarrassed to make decisions with leaders that are willing to ignore such address from their people. 2) It's better for the UK to leave as quickly as possible because uncertain…

> No need to be punitive.

Except, to prevent other EU nations from leaving, brexit should be as painful as possible. Ideally with the UK falling apart.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#150

Post by ps4fanboy »

tt293 wrote: post #137
lhnz wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xenophobia isn't the reason intelligent people are pro 'Leave'. For example, many powerful free-trade Libertarian think-tanks backed Brexit: the Hoover Institution [0], the Cato Institute [1], the Adam Smith Institute [2], etc. These certainly aren't racist dumb-dumbs or protectionist "little Englanders", and their opinions are well worth a read. While bigots exist and certainly voted 'Leave' that does not mean that…

Not that many intelligent people are actually 'pro Leave': http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-re...

You are linking education (specifically having a degree) with intelligence is there anything to correlate this assertion? It comes of as incredible classist, just because plumbers do not have degrees does not mean they are stupider than someone with a degree in interior design.
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