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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#91

Post by wastedhours »

seanalltogether wrote: post #9

The UK has a mandate from the people to leave the EU. Attempting to block the brexit over technicalities in Unionist agreements is a weak position for any politician to take. If the SNP believes they can successfully build a new mandate from the Scottish people to leave the UK, that would be a position of strength and they should work with that.

Agree it's a mandate and we have to respect it - however I'm still shocked it was a decision made on a direct majority as opposed to some level of supermajority for such a potential dramatic change.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#92

Post by sievebrain »

deepvibrations wrote: post #69
Nursie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has…

I agree with your principles, but I do think this may be an exception...With all the mis-information peddled by the media pre-vote and given the number of people who have already come out saying they didn't fully understand the implications of voting leave, I personally believe that another referendum wouldn't be the worst thing, especially given that the win was by such a small margin. What if we were to have a seco…

I wouldn't be so sure a re-run would go the way you expect. There was also a large amount of open lying and misinformation from the Remain side. To name just a few:

Cameron saying "I will campaign for in or out depending on whether I get a good deal for Britain". Reality: he got nothing and then claimed leaving the EU would be morally wrong.

Cameron saying "this isn't about me, I'll stay on no matter what". Reality: resigning the very next day, having known full well he'd do that if he lost yet he openly lied to the public about it.

Osborne saying "there'll be a punishment budget". Reality: that has now mysteriously vanished.

But I don't think any of that will really matter in a rerun anyway. The pro-remain side seems to think voters are spreadsheets that weigh up the output of yet more spreadsheets which pretend to represent the real world, and then make their decision based on that.

In reality most Leave voters clocked ages ago that politicians were not trustworthy and made up their minds based on other factors. If the referendum is ignored then expect a lot of Remain voters in the regions to switch to Leave: it will be widely interpreted as the end of democracy itself if they don't.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#93

Post by pmontra »

Seen from another EU country, saddened as I am by the UK leaving the Union, my take on this is:

1) Even if the referendum is advisory, given the importance of the issue it would be difficult to dismiss it and do as if it didn't happen. I'd be embarrassed to make decisions with leaders that are willing to ignore such address from their people.

2) It's better for the UK to leave as quickly as possible because uncertainty is bad. It's bad for business and for anybody. See the hours we are wasting writing about it ;-) Furthermore uncertainty could prompt unrest, especially in the UK (you voted, you won, you're ignored, you get angrier and angrier).

3) There is no reason not to keep being friends, even if a little disillusioned, and keep doing business together. There will be some extra barriers and cross border exchanges will decrease, but IMHO the UK should become as one of those other European countries that don't belong to the EU. No need to be punitive.

4) If Scotland wants to stay in the EU they should either get independent or make some clear deal with the UK, and the EU to accept them. I understand but not approve the reason for Spain not liking the idea, but they'll be frowned at quite a lot.

5) There are territories around the world, some virtually independent from the country that claims rights on them. There are some of the especially in Asia, maybe for face saving reasons. Could Scotland be the next one? Even London is possible, but much more difficult to implement IHMO.

That said, we are human beings and we are used to bend the written words to our wills. If we agree on the result any act or constitutional chart can be interpreted to match it or changed.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#94

Post by sievebrain »

antouank wrote: post #64
Nursie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has…

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

The Remain side has a far bigger and more systematic problem with classism than the Leave side has with racism.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#95

Post by ck425 »

pi-err wrote: post #47

To quote a Tory MP: "Nicola Sturgeon seems to be the only one who knows what's she's doing". Warning of a constitutional crisis is good tactics. It probably will not lead to canceling brexit, though it will probably break the 1998 devolution law and change how Scotland can "sell" independence and its claim to stay in the EU. So it looks like this is either to lay ground for a "fast track" EU access due to special cir…

Definitely the former. That and possibly an attempt at a second indyref if the current momentum doesn't die. I live in Edinburgh, one of the areas with the highest No vote in the indyref, and pretty much everyone I talk to who voted No would strongly consider a Yes vote. Depending how the situation in westminster develops, this might calm down or it could get stronger.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#96

Post by sievebrain »

onion2k wrote: post #49
Nursie wrote: post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

each one carries with it the implication that a direct democratic mandate, to leave the EU, is ignored There is no such mandate, implied or otherwise. The referendum was advisory. Legally there is nothing compelling the government to act on the result.

Legally the UK is still ruled by the Queen.

That situation would change in a heartbeat if the Queen actually tried to rule.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#97

Post by sievebrain »

ck425 wrote: post #82
broodbucket wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland can't leave the UK and remain in the EU. They would have to become independent and then begin the application process, which could take years. There's a real possibility that some EU members will oppose their application. EDIT: "UK Government could use Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty to apply for a treaty change which would allow Scotland to become a member when it formally becomes independent in 2016. The A…

We might not have to leave the uk and rejoin. There's precedence for regions of countries not being in the EU while other are. Additionally the UK is a union between Scotland and England so we'd technically not be leaving, but choosing to break the union, at which point the UK ceases to exist and becomes Scotland and England (and it's associated region/principalities etc). Since the UK is the member of the EU (not it…

The EU Commission has already said flat out there would have to be a new application.

That application would certainly be vetoed by either the Spanish (catalan issues) or the Germans (Scotland has a bigger deficit than Greece).

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#98

Post by dazc »

antouank wrote: post #64
Nursie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has…

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#99

Post by rahkiin »

simonh wrote: post #10
robhu wrote: post #2

Clause 28 of the 1998 Act notes at sub-clause 7, in dry terms, with regard to legislative competence that "this section does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland." In that single little line is the subordinate nature of devolution. Generally, Westminster will let the Scottish Parliament get on with devolved legislation. Carry on governing. But it is also made clear th…

You're right, but I think they could make it very difficult for Westminster if they wanted to. It's not a fight they can legally win, but it could still be in their interests to fight it anyway. There's a joke going around here in London that we should devolve with them forming Scotlondon and set up immigration controls at M25 junctions. It's becoming pretty clear that a lot of exit voters never imagined it could act…

I suggest naming it 'Scottledon'

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#100

Post by cmdkeen »

ubernostrum wrote: post #29
throwaway987611 wrote: post #11

No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base. Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not see this. The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. Companies aren't going to stay in because of Europe. They are going to move over the border. Also. The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt. Will the EU bail ou…

The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. The consequences for leaving the EU were well-known and kicked in within hours of the votes being tallied last week, but didn't stop the English from voting to do it anyway. And if we're going to allow the English to be that reckless on the basis of a single simple-majority vote, I don't see why we oughtn't let the Scots do the same.

The consequences for Scotland leaving the UK are an order of magnitude worse, and that is if they were guaranteed admission to the EU on a roughly similar basis to to the UK's current status. In reality they would probably have to adopt the Euro and thus have even less control over fiscal policy which would mean dealing with the 9% budget deficit, higher than Greece's which would be political suicide.
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