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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#71

No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base. Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not see this. The consequences for leaving the UK are well known. Companies aren't going to stay in because of Europe. They are going to move over the border. Also. The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt. Will the EU bail ou…

You are spreading many inaccuracies here, but we should take them one-by-one.

No. Sturgeon is just playing up to her base.

I suspect it's even more simple – Sturgeon thinks that Scotland should be part of the EU, is backed by a clear majority of voters, and will take all steps possible to try and keep the country in the EU.

Scotland is effectively a one party system, which is quite dangerous, never mind that the common man/woman do not see this.

Scotland currently has a parliament in which no single party has a majority. That's essentially as far from a one-party state as it's possible to get.

You might call it a one-party state in the sense of representation as Westminster, but that's down to an outdated electoral system more than anything else.

The consequences for leaving the UK are well known.

That might have been the case (though I don't think it was) but it's clear that those consequences are likely to be substantially different now. The UK that existed at the time of the last referendum will no longer exist.

Companies aren't going to stay in because of Europe. They are going to move over the border.

I'm not sure there is any evidence of that at this point. Few companies said they would do that at the time of the last referendum, so it's difficult to see why this would have changed.

Also. The UK rescued the Scottish banks. Scotland will have to take on half this debt. Will the EU bail out Scotland? Will there be Greece style terms?

The UK rescued the UK's banks – not 'Scottish banks'. These were banks that were Scottish in origin, but with most work conducted in the City of London, and which paid taxes to the UK treasury. It would be obviously preposterous to expect Scotland to bail out London-based banks, given that it does not receive the associated tax revenue.

So with the debt, companies leaving, not getting much tax receipts. How will Scotland pay for the FREE tuition, FREE healthcare, FREE this and FREE that, they like to promise? Is the EU going to be sending them FREE monies?

Your argument seems to presuppose that the Scottish economy will collapse, which seems unlikely. Maybe it will result in a tightening of budgets such that some things which are currently free at point of use will no longer be so.

Finally and this is where I tend to laugh the most. Once Scotland joins Europe and the Euro. How is Scotland an independent state in Europe? How have Scottish people not realised this? Go look at Greece!

People in Scotland are well aware of that. There is a trade-off of sovereignty for stability and economics; Scotland might be subject to EU law, but in exchange it gains access to the single market. It's possible to be both an independent state and agree to international treaties.

Oh and the UK won't let Scotland use the pound. I can tell you that now!

The UK has no say on who uses Sterling.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#72
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does raise some new issues, as there is now an unpoliced border between EU and non-EU in Ireland. (and by now I mean soon)

It does indeed, and there's going to have to be some careful figuring-stuff-out going on, depending on exactly what path the EU and UK take now. There is precedent for open borders between EU and non-EU countries, Norway and Sweden for instance. But that situation is not exactly analagous and I'm not going to pretend I think there's an easy solution.

> There is precedent for open borders between EU and non-EU countries, Norway and Sweden for instance.

That's not a precedent since Norway is an EEA/EFTA member and actually even part of Schengen. However, as provision for joining the EEA/EFTA, Norway agreed on free movement rules, something that the Brexit campaign has been campaigning against. They've been backtracking on that issue, but I'm still curious how they'll square that circle.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#73
post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

> the implication that a direct democratic mandate, to leave the EU, is ignored

At least insofar it's true that many people just voted to "send a signal" but didn't actually think they'd get a majority, that strikes me as going by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it, so to speak.

> If this occurs we can expect politics in the UK to become dangerously divided and unsettled, and the likes of UKIP to become a seriously large party in the next parliament, not to mention civil unrest in various forms.

Hmm, sounds like a lose/lose situation: http://usuncut.com/world/hate-crimes-across-england-evoke-ni...

Admittedly, both these points are kind of anecdotal, I don't have an overview or a glass ball either. But still, I don't really get the "it might be a mistake, but you have to go through with it" stuff.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#74
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has…

I agree with your principles, but I do think this may be an exception...With all the mis-information peddled by the media pre-vote and given the number of people who have already come out saying they didn't fully understand the implications of voting leave, I personally believe that another referendum wouldn't be the worst thing, especially given that the win was by such a small margin. What if we were to have a seco…

I wonder how much of this is the media indulging its own bias, and how significant the 'bregret'* stuff really is.

I really hope we don't find out how a second referendum goes, as I think it would paint the EU and westminster in a worse light, and put UKIP firmly into ascendancy.

*I really hate all these portmanteaus...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#75
post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0]

There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so.

[0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#76
post #66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just thinking out loud - probably wandering into OT territory here, but ... If Spain was to block an independent Scotland's entry to the EU would they feel the need to provide an explanation? If so would they say the real reason - "we don't want to set a precedent and embolden Catalonia's bid for independence" - or would they weasel out of it somehow?

I doubt any explanation needs to be provided. What true explanation did the Leave vote give to EU members?

I was just about to update my comment saying that I know they're not obliged, I was just curious that's all. It would be a bit of a blow for the now mostly pro-independence, but pro-EU Scots to have battled through all this only to be vetoed because of similar issues in a completely separate country.

Given the chaos this whole vote has caused to everyone else, I'm not sure if we have the right to be upset about this however.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

This hate by some on the remain side is most unbecoming. You've got effectively called me a racist there. You realise this is precisely the sort of rhetoric that's lead us here?

I just mentioned the facts after the result. Are they not? And I'm trying to say that they have such a big effect, that defending them is not, in the long-term, good thing for this society. I'm just sad that a minority is viewed falsely as a majority.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#78
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does indeed, and there's going to have to be some careful figuring-stuff-out going on, depending on exactly what path the EU and UK take now. There is precedent for open borders between EU and non-EU countries, Norway and Sweden for instance. But that situation is not exactly analagous and I'm not going to pretend I think there's an easy solution.

> There is precedent for open borders between EU and non-EU countries, Norway and Sweden for instance. That's not a precedent since Norway is an EEA/EFTA member and actually even part of Schengen. However, as provision for joining the EEA/EFTA, Norway agreed on free movement rules, something that the Brexit campaign has been campaigning against. They've been backtracking on that issue, but I'm still curious how they'…

It's a precedent for EU/non-EU borders being open.

I agree it's not a good fit for the circumstances here, it's all rather uncertain. But it at least shows that not everything is black and white.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your principles, but I do think this may be an exception...With all the mis-information peddled by the media pre-vote and given the number of people who have already come out saying they didn't fully understand the implications of voting leave, I personally believe that another referendum wouldn't be the worst thing, especially given that the win was by such a small margin. What if we were to have a seco…

I wonder how much of this is the media indulging its own bias, and how significant the 'bregret'* stuff really is. I really hope we don't find out how a second referendum goes, as I think it would paint the EU and westminster in a worse light, and put UKIP firmly into ascendancy. *I really hate all these portmanteaus...

The media is working really hard with the bregret thing, the same they worked really hard making sure everybody would vote remain. It's sickening how they want to suppress the will of the majority.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#80

Legally, as far as I understand no. But politically? Almost certainly. If Scotland could remain in the EU (By remaining , not re-joining, which Madrid would oppose) then they almost certainly would. This means that "brexit" would imply the end of the "United" in the UK and I believe that would be enough of a change in circumstances that a) leave politicians could hold off invoking Article 50 without losing face or b)…

Scotland can't leave the UK and remain in the EU. They would have to become independent and then begin the application process, which could take years. There's a real possibility that some EU members will oppose their application. EDIT: "UK Government could use Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty to apply for a treaty change which would allow Scotland to become a member when it formally becomes independent in 2016. The A…

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