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YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

arstechnica.com

211–220 of 251 posts

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#211

One aspect that I've not heard discussed is the likelihood that a portion of those being granted a basic income will be exploited for their new-found cash. Has this been considered at YC and if so, what are their approaches to minimizing it?

I guess my question is (similar to your and to an earlier thread here)...if the minimum income is given to all, wouldn't "lowest tier" housing costs just raise up to swallow it all up, since demand for housing would increase? ( initially I doubt exploitation will be a problem since the number of participants is so few ).

Today "lowest tier housing" is purchased by the poor/poorest class. Suddenly the poor (and everybody, for that matter) have more money, however the amount of housing remains the same (though I guess some new development could be spurred, but you get the drift).

Really the YC experiment won't be able to even touch this aspect. It also won't be able to really touch on the long term effects it would have on participants. Initially will people be like "yea! let's get more education!" but then after 10 or 20 years, it just becomes common place, people stop thinking of it as "extra money for growth" but as "just normal monthly spending money" (like they consider food stamps today or what not) what happens then, I wonder...do they just live in slightly nicer apartments, or use it for education? It will be an interesting experiment for sure...

All I know is the people who live next to me really wish they could afford cable TV. And trips to disneyland. This would make their dreams come true...(there's a reason they're currently poor, believe it or not, it's something like cultural background and current cultural peer group, and kind of their understanding of how the world works). Extra money might not help that particular group. Though it would take the stress/pressure off, certainly. Or maybe it would, I don't know. So in essence, it might "magnify" peoples' current propensities. Do they want to not work? Don't! Do they want to invest? You can invest more quickly (though the reality, like I said before, is people tend to just "spend up" to what they think they can afford, get nicer cars, etc. again if this experiment is "only 5 years" they may not see this). It also makes me wonder if employers will offer "less" since they know "well, you already make 10K so I guess we don't have to offer you as much..." :|

However, if I receives this money of course I would do magnanimous things with it, like...investing it in real estate. Especially since poor people have more money to pay landlords. I wouldn't feel bad about jacking the rents on them now that I know they can afford it :)

So the reality is that people who now "wish" they could go to college will be able to (huge win, BTW). And those happy with not working? Well, they won't have to (or do they already not?) Got a cruddy job you wish you could quit? You will be able to (so maybe wages for worse jobs will increase?) The question mark is what will happen after that. Will people who quit their "tedious job" start up a new business out of sheer boredom/sheer freedom? Or will they just not work?

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#212

One aspect that I've not heard discussed is the likelihood that a portion of those being granted a basic income will be exploited for their new-found cash. Has this been considered at YC and if so, what are their approaches to minimizing it?

This is why I wish the sample size was bigger, closer to that magic 2000 person populace that gives a relatively random cross section. I just don't think they're going to get the value they need out of this limited experiment. 2000*24000 = 48million... I'm sure they have that kind of scratch laying around.

Yes, but to truly understand the implications wouldn't it have to be like...the size of a whole country?

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#213

I hope they will be taking the Hawthorne effect into account here. I am fundamentally a proponent of UBI but the last thing we want are experiments in pseudo environments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

Right, it's like participants may artificially use the money to "better their lives" only because they personally wish that UBI could become permanent...

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#214

They'll do nothing and buy drugs and alcohol. People have been doing that with free money since forever. You can't package the free money in a different way and expect different results.

They're I think randomizing the sample, though, so it's not just targeting poor people, if that helps clarify.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#215
post #83

Most places won't let you rent without making 2.5 times the rent. So for 2k that's $800. In Oakland that gets you an SRO, a single room, or you can live in a box truck. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/apa?query=oakland&ma...

Yeah I thought that too somehow...they say "$1-$2K" and I'm like...is that really a basic income wage?

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#216

Can you live off of 2k in San Fran?

Oakland, and: probably not very well. but you can still work, you can stop spending every day stressed about how your entry level retail job isn't giving you enough hours, or you can afford to set two or three days of the week as "unavailable and take some classes. You can stop worrying that taking the day off to interview for a job will be the difference between making rent that month. Although for reference 2k a mo…

Unfortunately the study, even at 5 years, doesn't seem long enough, in my mind, to gauge if people under it would "just move to Albuquerque where the cost of living is cheap" (or perhaps UBI could/should be adjusted based on location dunno...)

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#218

I'm confused. Isn't this already being done various places around the world already? (e.g. Alaska, Puerto Rico) Why not study people in those places? Better yet, nearly everybody in those places is getting the benefit, so the experiment isn't poisoned by the culture (you're the only one in your neighborhood getting a benefit - others treat you differently)

They kind of dismiss "other places that do this" by saying they want to see how it'd work in the US

https://blog.ycombinator.com/basic-income

I had a similar initial question, since I heard once that Germans (?) already have a basic income system in place, though possibly only for the poor ($500/month plus housing or something like that). Though I suppose "that's Germans, not us" or what not.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#219
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is landscaping not employment?

That's his point. Although it wasn't a blue collar job like his dad originally had, it was still enough to keep him mentally healthy. Being completely unemployed sitting home harmed him psychologically. His point was that having any job will create enough benefits to offset the supposed harms caused by having a job that one would consider himself overqualified for.

For the most part I agree, with the caveat that 'any job' is perhaps too broad.

I've done loads of 'menial' jobs throughout my life and some were so soul-crushingly terrible (to me) that I'm not sure having them was better than 'sitting at home unemployed'.

I've never done landscaping, but I suspect it would not have been one of those soul-crushing jobs.

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