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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#991

Post by 75dvtwin »

I think it is a great day for the power of direct democracy, individual impact, and subsequent accountability for ones voting decisions.

The old England introduced to the world of kings & dictators, the Habeas Corpus and Magna Carta.

Now, the UK of 2016 had shown that the voters -- can take the decision power back.

The so called 'representative democracy' is no longer representative, it is, instead -- a 'Placebo' democracy. Where the voters are mislead to think that their opinion matters.

And it is the 'leavers' people of UK, the voters who are described on this forum as the 'old and un-educated' -- are the first in Europe, to recognize that they were sold a Placebo-democracy.

The vote to leave is the first chapter in the modern's world Magna Carta.

And I congratulate the people of UK.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#992

Post by nec4b »

Congratulations to British people for their courage and determination. It amazing how much primitivism and hate on a forum of the self called "elite" and the "intellectuals" who cannot stand that someone could think differently about their grandiose ideas.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#993

Post by thaumasiotes »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

> And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began.

I don't think this is true. German, for example, had a very strong presence.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#994

Post by Gaelan »

_audakel wrote: post #912

Going out on a tangent - Would California be more successful as an independent country rather than as a state of the US? As things stand, California is currently the eighth largest economy in the world on their own. 17 of the top 30 U.S. tech companies are in California, which should come as no surprise. Tourism, entertainment, biotech, and agriculture are multibillion dollar industries already. Aerospace and defense…

I mean, the US doesn't have the best history with secession…

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#995

Post by pcvarmint »

I consider this a good development.

Anytime a sovereign group of individuals declares independence from a larger group, which inevitably has different interests, it's a good thing.

I don't know why there's so much despair over this.

Yes, surely there are short-term negative effects, whether in the loss of EU privileges, or the temporary losses in currency values, but in the long-term, there's more independence and self-sufficiency.

A larger body of government isn't smarter; in fact, it is more detached from local concerns, and less able to react to them in a timely fashion.

We should celebrate the Brexit, just as we should celebrate any and all declarations of independence from larger bodies of governance.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#996

Post by davidf18 »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> "A very sad day for everyone in Europe."

The unskilled, or partially skilled working class in Britain had to compete with immigrants from poorer EU countries for jobs and the immigrants also drove down wage rates.

The leadership of the EU is able to dictate treaties to member countries, but the leadership (unlike the President of the US) is not elected by the people, but rather appointed by elites. In other words, the leadership of the EU had no mandate to govern by the electorate of the EU. This favored policies that favored elites, but not the working class.

The rise of Trump and of Sanders was caused by the Republican and Democratic political elites and media elites that ignored the suffering of the working class. Working class in the US has to compete with illegal immigrants for jobs while at the same time having their wages depressed.

It is against the law to hire illegal immigrants, but they are hired anyway.

Meanwhile firms are exporting jobs to Mexico, China etc.

Recently Carrier air conditioners closed a factory in Indiana and moved the jobs to Mexico. There is a video on youtube with the Carrier leadership acting terribly towards the factory workers in Indiana. Only Donald Trump spoke out against Carrier exporting jobs.

Trump may not be able to "fix" the problems, but at least he's not a member of the Republican or Democratic elites that simply ignore the plight of the working class.

The UK withdrawal from the EU was most about economics for the working class and lack of autonomy for voters. The situation was created by British political and media elite who by and large simply ignored the complaints of the working class.

PM Cameron had the hubris to call for the referendum because he that it was impossible that he would lose.

The EU leadership and the leadership of individual EU member countries need to start listening more to the citizens, the electorate and less to their clueless elites.

They need to take into account the job concerns of the working class in member countries instead of just ignoring them.

This is all probably because of a structural problem in the EU that makes it basically not a democratic institution elected by the people. If the EU has any chance of a successful union, they need to ensure that all leadership offices are elected, much as they are in the US.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#997

Post by kevcampb »

MustardTiger wrote: post #757
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The outright disdain shown for democracy here is shocking. The EU is a completely undemocratic institution with a huge amount of control over member nations. Having an organization I have no say in control my life and my country is insane. Especially one that threatens sanctions against member nations that elect "wrong" governments, where "wrong" means "opposes any EU policies". The US wouldn't be united if the citiz…

You do realise MEPs were democratically elected, yes?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#998

Post by rospaya »

thirdsun wrote: post #324
slg wrote: post #198

I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.

My thoughts as well - it's surprising (well, maybe not) to see how effective these populist movements are these days whether it's France (Front National), Germany (AfD), Britain (UKIP), Czech, Poland, etc. To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

> To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

Is it? At one point they blocked one type of a building from being built.

Not to mention this clusterfuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#999

Post by cLeEOGPw »

dangjc wrote: post #602
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

Freedom of movement is an ideal to aspire to, but maybe the reality we live in now is that immigration needs to be managed to maintain social cohesion. People need time to stop thinking of themselves as British or German first but rather European. Eastern European countries need time to develop. The Eurozone needs time to stabilize. Eventually I think the EU will get there, but maybe for now, the survival of the Euro…

> People need time to stop thinking of themselves as British or German first but rather European.

Things like this is what's pushing people to brexit. 20 year old sheltered college liberals who never saw life outside their rich parent private houses telling people what to think and what is best for them. People are tired of being called -ists and -phobes, and this vote result expresses the sentiment.

Just because some people think globalism is cool, doesn't mean everyone wants it. Globalism isn't some universal goal everyone should be moving to. There are tons and tons of people that don't want globalization, and they were silent for a long time, but their patience is running out. UK is not some kind of exception, same thing on the rise is in US and many other countries too.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#1000

Post by gejjaxxita »

Strom wrote: post #674
ivoras wrote: post #392

One more thing: the UK was the official reason English is one of the languages of the EU (same as, on paper at least, with all the other languages). It will require some more fiddling to keep it so.

Luckily English is the official language in other EU countries as well. Ireland & Malta. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio...

English is an official language of those countries.
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