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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

911–920 of 1001 posts

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#911

anyone else concerned? The entire world seems to be moving towards fascist right wing nationalist politics. Whether it is the brexit, trumpism, or the austrian elections. Europe keeps getting destabilized. If i was an enemy of europe and freedom, id be cheering. Instead i'm deeply concerned.

Most of the Brexit voters seem pretty non fascist and Hillary is well ahead in the polls so I don't think it's that bad.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#912
Going out on a tangent - Would California be more successful as an independent country rather than as a state of the US?

As things stand, California is currently the eighth largest economy in the world on their own. 17 of the top 30 U.S. tech companies are in California, which should come as no surprise. Tourism, entertainment, biotech, and agriculture are multibillion dollar industries already. Aerospace and defense contracts still rake in around $25bn a year. And many state business leaders are increasingly showing a real commitment to renewable energy.

Overall, while I believe there is definitely more potential for a social democratic style of government if California were its own country, the changes would not be that drastic. Barring a major collapse, California would, like Canada, still remain in the U.S.'s economic and cultural shadow. And who knows? Secession might be the best thing to happen to other states like Texas, New York, and Massachusetts. Who else would be capable of filling the void left in the energy, media, and technology industries? There is certainly upside in such a move but also a great deal of risk.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#913
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

Actually I think this makes the eventual prospect of United States of Europe more probable, not less. The UK is the country who has most strongly opposed political integration in the EU. It has a history of watering down, or outright vetoing, proposals that would delegate more sovereignty to the EU or make it more tightly knit.

Unfortunately, with euroskepticism strong also in countries like France, it seems improbable that we are going towards an U.S.E. any time soon. But if Britain were not in the EU in the first place, maybe we would have achieved it already...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#914
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together.

I feel like the EU has been becoming more of a ruling political power than just the trade regulator it began as. I think the recent increase in EU laws is what set this into motion. I agree that the EU is beneficial for trade, but I don't understand why they've started trying to make political moves impacting citizens day to day lives

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#915
post #198

I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.

> Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric

The "experts" were wrong about the probability of a Brexit, maybe they're also wrong about the motivations too?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#916
post #426

We are all talking about economics but the whole deal is way more noble than mere money. No European ever has never think "woow this shinny $consumer_object is been produced inside the EU so I don't get to pay the import tax" but every single European younger than 50 at least once in its life has open up the Ryanair website and thought "for 30€ I guess this weekend I will be in London/Paris/Berlin/Madrid/Rome". The w…

"every single European younger than 50 at least once in its life has open up the Ryanair website"

I happen to be an European Union citizen under 50 and never heard of Ryanair...

But I'm familiar with (and tasted a little bit of) each stereotype-named perks you enumerated after!

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#917

This is what happens when major decisions can be determined a simple majority vote. What does 52 to 48 mean? It means UNDECIDED. Half the country feels one way, and the other half feels the other way. For a change this large, it should require at least a 60/40 vote. If the population is undecided, why on earth would you suddenly stop what you have been doing for the last 50 years (which has worked out fine) and go do…

>This is what happens when major decisions can be determined a simple majority vote. What does 52 to 48 mean? It means UNDECIDED. Half the country feels one way, and the other half feels the other way. For a change this large, it should require at least a 60/40 vote. If the population is undecided

It's important to point out that most of the UK jvoted to leave, where as every province (do they have provinces?) in Scotland voted to remain. It's a tad ironic considering Scotland voted to remain in the UK the other year - but I think they'll be leaving the UK soon.

I don't think the UK should remain because the vote was close, as once the Scottish vote is removed, it's much more than 52/48

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#918
> Young people are still building their lives, trying to establish their career. They're likely going to be denied the opportunity to live and work in 27 countries.

Why? Do you think only EU citizens are allowed to live and work in the EU? Do you think British people are now banned from entry into the EU?

Most people - young or old - do not even want to live and work in another European country.

> I think it's pretty disgraceful that they've torpedoed our future based on their hazy rose-coloured memories of some supposedly-better past.

I think it's pretty disgraceful that people like you demonstrate such incredible arrogance that your minority opinion is somehow innately superior; constructing ridiculous fantasies of why people voted to leave, based on absurd generalisations and a childish, rose-tinted view of the EU.

There's nothing to stop you living in an EU country, if you think by virtue of those two letters it's such a utopia compared to the UK or any other non-EU country (aka almost every country on the planet).

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#919
post #437
post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

> But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basically similar terms again anyway? Probably. But the leavers don't want "basically similar terms". They want the trade benefits without "paying" with things like freedom of movement. The EU will never allow that, as if they let the UK pick and choose the part they like best, other countries will want special treatment too. The best the UK can hope for i…

> But the leavers don't want "basically similar terms"

Says who?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#920
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

For some, like Germany, the EU is great. Their export-oriented economy coupled with control of the ECB and the Euro currency means they get to export their goods to the entire continent without tariffs. Someone like Greece/Portugal, who are not manufacturing/export economies, in the meantime get to enjoy endless debt and with no control to print and devalue their own currency, are essentially fucked. Forever. Is the EU "great" for them? I dunno.

Portugal is in trouble, so is Italy. The upcoming Italian banking center crisis, which is pretty much inevitable, will reset any economic gains from the last 5 years quite nicely. France is doing okay-ish. Definitely second fiddle to Germany though.

Speaking of Germany. Their bone-headed fear of - gasp - inflation and austerity measures are dividing Europe, not to mention Merkel's idiotic handling of the refugee crisis. Euro-scepticism is growing. Fully 1/3 of Germans are now Euro-sceptics. Let that sink in for a moment. Right-wing nationalism is increasing. Marie Le Pen and Geert Wilders are growing in popularity. If that's not a failure of Euro-liberal policies, I don't know what is.

I don't think what happened yesterday is great. But portraying the EU experiment (I call it that since it still might fail) as some kind of giant happy family and the UK being the unhappy, ungrateful child is grossly inaccurate.

The EU project has been in trouble and under pressure for a while now. I'm 100% convinced this is only the first domino to fall.

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