Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

news.ycombinator.com

31–40 of 46 posts

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin (I'm 2 minutes from my office, in the most expensive part of the city). Many people mention London in this thread and even assuming a 60% raise (not impossible but not so easy either from what I've seen) I'm not sure I could live 2 minutes from work in central London. When I interviewed with Palantir they were offering 700 GBP/month to people who live within 15 minute…

With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin Except that people contemplating a move from elsewhere -- especially from outside the continent -- need to think about certain things beyond their immediate living expenses. Like, you know, building savings buffer for the (inevitable, for most) return home, and maintaining a salary level not astronomically far off from what they can get in other major hubs (simply to…

This. The situation is completely different for an outsider than for somebody who's already made their move or for a local person.

My experience has been that German bosses in general do not comprehend how hard and expensive it is for somebody from far away to come to Germany and organize their life in there. A lot of people arranged for everything they need in life years ago and already forgotten about it. With the young generation, many live with their parents, they basically have their own free apartment in the parent's house, they have a car purchased for them and some money in their bank account to cover their immediate needs. A very convenient setup which makes them oblivious to how much those things actually cost in the real world. It happened many times when in a conversation with them I shared my experiences and practically the universal reaction I was receiving from them was along the lines of: "Really? Now, that's tough. Good luck to you then."

If you come to a new country you by definition have nothing and you have to procure everything from the most basic tools to whatever you're going to need as a professional. Consider what you have to purchase/pay for:

Rent an apartment, pay the security deposit, pay the agent commission, purchase a set of furniture for the entire apartment (most are offered empty and unlivable), purchase the household appliances. Unless you fancy living with roommates, eating junk food and sleeping on the floor.

If you're a software engineer, you're most likely going to be buying a workstation, a couple of monitors, a large desk, an ergonomic chair, a printer, a scanner and whatever else you need. Unless you plan not to do anything programming-related beyond office hours.

If you're going to a location where the public transportation system is not well developed or if they like to call strikes there all the time, you'll also need to purchase a car and get yourself a local driving license. Unless you enjoy losing hours in commute and regularly being late for work.

See how the numbers quickly add up. And somebody's got to pay for all this fun.

Notice how I'm talking about the basic stuff only that practically every person would need. I haven't even gone into family/childcare expenses.

I remember having a conversation with my boss about all of this. I was trying to get across the point that the amount I was receiving was making it impossible for me to set up a life at that location. To which I was told if I was unable to rent an apartment then I should consider renting a room instead and share the apartment with others. Now, that's positive. Definitely a thing to say to a talent who has multiple other options and the whole world open. And since the same level of payment was being hold firmly by all other German companies I negotiated with, I finally made the choice to move out.

That probably explains why there's so little true talent you can find in Germany. The treatment just isn't good.

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a 60K salary you can live anywhere in Berlin Except that people contemplating a move from elsewhere -- especially from outside the continent -- need to think about certain things beyond their immediate living expenses. Like, you know, building savings buffer for the (inevitable, for most) return home, and maintaining a salary level not astronomically far off from what they can get in other major hubs (simply to…

I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Again, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin, but let's be realistic, the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. Also, this thread is about European tech hubs. Have a look at average startup salaries in London, Paris, No…

>> I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too.

Not really. From my experience, only very large companies can sometimes offer you about 1-2K as a compensation for your relocation expenses and that's it. Consider yourself very lucky.

>> the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason.

High living expenses is a good reason already. Also, what is not immediately obvious, an employee whose mind is constantly occupied with things like looking for a cheaper apartment or finding a more paying employment is not going to be performing well. He/she has other needs and building your product well just isn't high priority for them.

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#33
post #2

IMHO It's too soon to tell. If several other states do the same the EU will become a disjointed mess. Some polls say as many as 43% of Germans feel more power should come home. If other member states show intention to leave it could ignite a surge of support for Germany to do the same. Then Berlin would just be another really nice place to visit but, isolated in German laws and the same chaos the UK is about to exper…

Actually, it is the other way round: 69% of Germans wanted Britain to stay. Since the beginning of the year support for the EU rose and now for the first time a majority of Germans (45%) think that the EU has more advantages than disadvantages (38% think both advantages and disadvantages, 14% more disadvantages) [0].

Also: If you look at the numbers also from the Brexit votum, you will see that young people are very much pro EU.

[0]: http://www.heute.de/mehrheit-eu-wird-wegen-brexit-nicht-zerb... (German)

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> London has a lot a talent form around the world. No brexit can change that. Actually, quite likely it will. One of the main arguments of the "Leave" campaign was curtailing immigration as in effectively reducing it to zero. Now, of course this isn't actually possible and Farage and others are already sheepishly back-pedaling on most of their bold claims. If this whole Brexit affair is supposed to make any remote se…

The immigration argument was never about skilled workers. London itself voted heavily in favour of remaining. Immigration was a stirred-up debate citing unskilled eastern european workers taking low paid jobs, heeding and feeding the insecurities of areas of the UK which are and have been economically depressed for decades. I expect visas for skilled workers to quickly become very, very easy, and visas for unskilled…

Making immigration an argument only about unskilled labour is incredibly short-sighted. You can't run an economy just with highly-skilled workers.

At the very least you can expect things like construction or plumbing to become a lot more expensive (not that I consider either unskilled labour but those are typically not included when talking about visa for skilled workers).

Then there's the foreign exchange risk created by this whole mess, which will make skilled work more expensive as well.

I've been doing business with UK companies occasionally and up until now I had no problem with billing them in GBP. Now I'll have to bill them in EUR because I'm not willing to take the foreign exchange risk. Since the pound is already massively devalued against the euro and likely will continue to be in the next few years British companies will have to pay a premium for products and services from outside the UK.

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#35
post #18
post #17

Dublin ? It's right there, many big companies already have their offices there, English is the official spoken language, it is basically a far as uk to reach from the point of view of any European citizen, and it is cheaper (I guess). Taxation is lower BUT actually enforced: there is no such thing as City of London corporation, isle of man or crap like that. I guess it is less "developed" than London, but becoming th…

The sad thing about Germany is their loathe for the English language: you basically cannot expect to fully live there without learning German. ATMs and self-dispensers (example: bus/subway ticket machines) are poorly translated to English, for example. For example, bus/subway stops are only announced in German, not in English. In Milan, Italy, bus and subway stops are announced in both Italian and English, public tra…

That's an entirely generational and social thing and it's not so much caused by a dislike of the English language but by a lack of opportunity to actually speak English with Germany being a large domestic market itself and things like every film being dubbed in German.

If you live in one of the large cities (particular one of those that are used to welcoming tourists) and mostly deal with young people from the tech industry you'll be able to get along without ever having to speak a word of German.

Signage - particularly in small towns that are not used to foreigners - will be in German exclusively but to understand those a little bit of tourist German will be sufficient.

That said, what's so bad about learning another language? It'll broaden your mind and teach you a thing or two about another culture. Besides, learning German isn't all that difficult for a native English speaker (perfecting it probably takes a very long time but nobody will expect you to be perfect).

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I relocated from another continent. My company gives decent relocation/signing bonuses, so I assume our competitors do too. Again, I'm all for higher wages in Berlin, but let's be realistic, the market rate is what it is, no company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. Also, this thread is about European tech hubs. Have a look at average startup salaries in London, Paris, No…

No company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. Generally people who have some sense of reasonableness and proportion (that is, who don't aren't fixated on the dollar amount of their salary to the exclusion of all other factors) don't mind taking a bit of haircut to live in a greatly more…

> They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then.

From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle.

As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software developer works at a hedge fund.

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No company in its right mind is going to hire someone asking for +50% with no good reason. They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. Generally people who have some sense of reasonableness and proportion (that is, who don't aren't fixated on the dollar amount of their salary to the exclusion of all other factors) don't mind taking a bit of haircut to live in a greatly more…

> They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software develop…

In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle.

Well a few lines up from here someone was claiming the exact opposite -- "there's a huge lack of talent." (Which would seem to imply both local talent, and talent that can be drawn from outside).

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can give up on the idea of recruiting people from major hubs (SV/London/NYC) then. From the SV and NYC, you're probably right. From a company's point of view, why would you even try? In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. As for London, I don't agree, it's very easy. London salaries aren't that great on average, not every software develop…

In Berlin you can easily hire people from all over Europe and nearby countries without much immigration hassle. Well a few lines up from here someone was claiming the exact opposite -- "there's a huge lack of talent." (Which would seem to imply both local talent, and talent that can be drawn from outside).

Again, look at the competition. Is it any easier for other cities?

- London: higher salaries, much higher CoL => lower disposable income

- Dublin: barely higher salaries, higher CoL

- Amsterdam: similar/lower salaries, higher CoL

- Paris: lower salaries, higher CoL

- Stockholm, Helsinki: lower salaries, higher CoL (and crazy housing situation in Stockholm)

- Southern/Eastern Europe, Baltics: low CoL but the salaries are bad

You want to make good money? This leaves Oslo and Copenhagen where your overall purchasing power isn't going to be that much higher. The true outliers are Luxembourg and Switzerland where the tech ecosystem sadly isn't very exciting (why do you think a Swiss would take a job in Berlin? :)

I don't think Europe will ever be able to create a tech hub similar to the SV. And without a high concentration of talent, salaries can't go that much higher. London might get somewhere closer to NYC, but right now there's a very significant gap between finance and the rest. And Brexit will certainly not help.

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#39

Lisbon will be the place;),nice people, lots of talented people,english is common language,food . http://rethink.beta-i.pt/2016/05/04/report-lisbon-startup-sc...

From the Airbnb thread

http://www.buala.org/pt/cidade/quem-vai-poder-morar-em-lisbo...

Re: Ask HN: Next european hub Berlin?

#40
post #19
post #5

I've been living in Berlin since 3 years ( doing freelance web-development & my own "entrepreneurship" adventures ). IMHO Berlin might sound cool as a startup hub, but there is a huge lack of talent. Companies are struggling to find a decent dev/design team, probably because the payment is way too low than average. It's true that Berlin is cheaper than London ( and overall Germany ), but definitely is not so cheap to…

The low payment thing might be a general European issue when it comes to the tech industry. If you're ever wondering why Europe doesn't really have much of an equivalent of Silicon Valley yet, well maybe the wages being about half of their equivalents in the valley might have something to do with it.

That's true, but I would also add that in Europe you have a work culture against long work days/week, and it very rare to be asked to work more than 38/40h/w... and if you are asked to typically you are well compensated (1.5x/2x your normal wage x hour). Also vacation days are typically at least 5/6 weeks.

I mean, yes the market need to improve wages, but considering also the different work culture they are not _that_ low compared to the us ones.

Post reply on HN