Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership • Hacker News Board

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#21

Post by bArray » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

BrutallyHonest wrote: post #13

carsongross wrote: post #11

This is exactly how secession should work. Clearly the Scots and the English and Welsh have different opinions on being part of the EU. It is tyrannical for either group to force their preference on the others. So let Scotland secede and join the EU. Problem solved, human freedom and happiness maximized. See 'Secession: The Reasonable Option Everyone Resists' by Tom Woods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY

It would be more fair to hold a referendum in England whether it should be united with Scotland. Would be more productive for Scotland's independence.

I know of a lot of British people who do not want Scotland to be part of the UK. They get more funding per head, their own government and then complain they are unfairly treated.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#22

Post by BrutallyHonest » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

simonswords82 wrote: post #19

BrutallyHonest wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more fair to hold a referendum in England whether it should be united with Scotland. Would be more productive for Scotland's independence.

How so?

Politically whiny, want the independence but keep the £, have a lot of preferences already etc.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#23

Post by cylinder » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #14

BrutallyHonest wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of course, Hong Kong and Singapore will also stop being financial centres, since they haven't been in the EU to begin with.

That's disingenuous and you know it. One of the main attractions of London as a banking centre is its EU membership. Sure, there are others, but it seems extremely likely that companies will relocate because they judge access to the EU market as more important.

Underestimating the soft diplomatic skills of the English. It has always been their strength, not treaties. In no time you will see London be an Asian financial hub. They didn't need to be one before because they had it easy with the EU. But when they lose that business, they'll get to work in Asia. The distance won't matter.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#24

Post by duncanawoods » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to be asked at the same time.

Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about repeating referendums until an irreversible result occurs. I believe Indyref2 would be fairer as two questions:

1. "If Brexit, should Scotland be a separate country?" for Scots

2. "Should we still Brexit if there would be a Scexit?" for the whole UK to vote.

If the answers are "yes and no", then we get status quo.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#25

Post by _9MOTHER9HORSE » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

duncanawoods wrote: post #24

There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to be asked at the same time. Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about repeating re…

This is quite an elegant solution, and I like it.

I also think if we just held the same EU referendum again -- a sort of "are you sure?" -- the response would be a decisive remain vote.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#26

Post by _9MOTHER9HORSE » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

gggggggggg wrote: post #17

BrutallyHonest wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, although I wouldn't rush it. Worth seeing which countries will remain in the EU by the time UK finalises the exit.

There might not be a UK by the time the exit is finalized, that is the brutally honest subject of this thread.

There might not be an EU by the time Scotland gets a vote to secede and begins an application to join the EU.

Fascinating time to be alive.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#27

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 3:14 PM UTC

The UK has granted independence to more countries than any other, they know how to do it well, and how to have a good relation with the new nation.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#28

Post by Oletros » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

BrutallyHonest wrote: post #16

matthewmacleod wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's disingenuous and you know it. One of the main attractions of London as a banking centre is its EU membership. Sure, there are others, but it seems extremely likely that companies will relocate because they judge access to the EU market as more important.

Possibly, although I wouldn't rush it. Worth seeing which countries will remain in the EU by the time UK finalises the exit.

> Worth seeing which countries will remain in the EU by the time UK finalises the exit

All of them? The only ones asking a referendum are two far right parties in Holland and France

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#29

Post by DonaldFisk » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

duncanawoods wrote: post #24

There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to be asked at the same time. Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about repeating re…

Scotland leaving the UK was a reasonably foreseeable result of Brexit, so voters in England and Wales should have asked themselves question 2 when they voted on Thursday.

Britain, as a whole, voting for leaving the EU wasn't foreseen at the time of the Scottish independence referendum, so voters in that wouldn't have asked themselves question 1.

So the Scottish government should at this stage try to negotiate a Danish-style deal (Scotland stays in EU and UK). If they are successful, there would be no immediate need for another independence referendum. Otherwise, they should get the best EU membership terms they can for Scotland, and hold another independence referendum.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#30

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

BrutallyHonest wrote: post #13

carsongross wrote: post #11

This is exactly how secession should work. Clearly the Scots and the English and Welsh have different opinions on being part of the EU. It is tyrannical for either group to force their preference on the others. So let Scotland secede and join the EU. Problem solved, human freedom and happiness maximized. See 'Secession: The Reasonable Option Everyone Resists' by Tom Woods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOEdvfMeIY

It would be more fair to hold a referendum in England whether it should be united with Scotland. Would be more productive for Scotland's independence.

[deleted]