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Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

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Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#281

Post by rdtsc »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #103
Animats wrote: post #48

This may mean the breakup of the United Kingdom, too. Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe, and may choose to leave the UK, leaving Britain and Wales as the UK.[1] As a practical matter, it will become harder to do business into the EU from Britain. Visiting the EU from Britain may require a visa, and visiting Britain from the EU almost certainly will. This is really about Keeping Britain White…

This sounds very close to "Brexit supporters are racist." There seems to be a growing trend of people labeling anything they don't like with some -ist to shut down discussion.

Yeah I see that too. I don't have much of a dog in the fight. I am watching across the pond mostly.

But this seems to be the pattern. A lot of young, technical people here, are upset and one way to show their anger and disappointment is to just say their countrymen who voted the way they did hate darker skin colors.

It is hard to argue against that because if they say "that's not why", the reply is probably "oh, but they'll never admin in public, so they are still racist".

I can understand and see anger and effect it has, but I think it show badly and paints them in a bad light. In other words those that jump up and yell racist! are not looking tollerant or in general don't manage to convince other effectively as to why EU was a better option.

(Economic advantage and breakage of those ties is a much better argument and I can see that one being real).

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#282

Post by mc32 »

white-flame wrote: post #261
mc32 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people call Japan's immigration policy racist? Or do people not bemoan China controlling Tibet because, among other things, Tibet'd lose their cultural identity (this is separate from the valid argument about annexation and human rights issues). What about Bhutan, should we propose they go full globalization and either take on western culture, or Japanese or Korean culture? Fundamentally countries have a right to…

I'm pretty sure most people familiar with Japanese ethnic views & policies consider them racist. The difference is that Japan doesn't have the same stigmas against racism. In western countries where other freedoms are preached and valued, racism is much more hypocritical. But these immigration and cultural issues aren't necessarily racist. The weight behind anti-immigration movements includes other social/cultural/ec…

Is it though?

There are aspects of their history which was racist and the treatment of people of Korean descent living in Japan for generations is debatably racist (more ethnicist than racist) but their immigration policy, I don't think is racist just because they are very strict about accepting new immigrants and naturalizing people.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#283

Post by yardie »

mc32 wrote: post #279
yardie wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people call Japan's immigration policy racist? No because it applies to everyone equally. They call it xenophobic because that is exactly what it is. In the US we actually had a racist immigration policy, the Chinese Exclusion Act [0] because it was actually applied to a single race created by actual racists. Do you see the difference? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

Not sure why you're stating things about the US when we're talking about the UK and their policies --which apply to Europeans as well as people from other countries. And yes, the Chinese exclusion act was by definition racist... But no one in any major western country is talking about excluding one race or even nationality of people outright (Trump talks about "pausing" immigration from conflict zones). People do spe…

I was just pointing out a flaw in your argument.

I don't actually consider the UK's immigration policy as racist. Short-sighted, definitely. but racist? Definitely not

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#284

Post by yabatopia »

cdi wrote: post #147
volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

Also the idiotic "Right to be forgotten".

What's idiotic about the right to be forgotten?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#285

Post by smm2000 »

throwawaysocks wrote: post #200
p4wnc6 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% of GDP tied to a single trading partner and a single industry is a pretty big deal. Likewise, 4% of GDP in finance commerce to Germany is a big deal. Seems like good evidence that the parties will want to ensure trading continues mostly the same as it has been. A big question is whether the rest of the EU would be able to block such arrangements. I don't think they will either want to or be able to.

But the stickiness of geography for finance and autos are very different. Replicating a segment of London's financial sector in Frankfurt is easier than replicating BMW/VW to UK.

Cars are ultimate commodity - you can buy Lexus or BMW and they are mostly equivalent. I am sure Toyota or Honda will be happy to sell cars in UK. Import to UK from EU is almost 1.5x higher than reverse. Tariffs will cost EU more than UK.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#286

Post by yummyfajitas »

tokensimian wrote: post #274
yummyfajitas wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no, it's not "Don't leave me or I'll hurt you". It's "we had a contract, you broke it, that means I don't need to uphold my end of it either". That's generally how this whole treaty business works. It's right in the contract that member states have the freedom to leave. So tl;dr; Britain should stay in the EU because #remain folks want to start a trade war with them to punish them for leaving? And that maybe this…

Sorry to jump in uninvited... but that's what HN is. I think you're mischaracterizing the situation. Perspective 1: UK is breaking up with the EU, not vice-versa. P2: EU gets some adv/dis-advantages by including UK specifically P3: UK had some advantages/disadvantages from being part of EU P4: EU has incentive outside of British sitch to stay unified My (american) perspective is that Britain should stay in the EU bec…

Generally speaking I favor taking the short term pain of breaking up with an abusive spouse.

When France decided to leave the previous union of European states, the #remain folks definitely inflicted a lot of short term pain. Lots of French beaches still have monuments thanking the British, American and Canadian soldiers who died in support of #leave. Did that short term pain make #leave the wrong choice?

Also, as a Yank, I'd just like to tell any Brits on here that we still love them. Think about joining NAFTA. Our wine is just as good as French wine and London needs more burritos. We'd love to have some curries and all your delicious baked goods.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#287

Post by Pxtl »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #103
Animats wrote: post #48

This may mean the breakup of the United Kingdom, too. Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe, and may choose to leave the UK, leaving Britain and Wales as the UK.[1] As a practical matter, it will become harder to do business into the EU from Britain. Visiting the EU from Britain may require a visa, and visiting Britain from the EU almost certainly will. This is really about Keeping Britain White…

This sounds very close to "Brexit supporters are racist." There seems to be a growing trend of people labeling anything they don't like with some -ist to shut down discussion.

While I do think it's unfair to describe the brexit movement as wholly racist, it's hard to deny that racism was a contributing factor. After all, a big part of the momentum of the brexit movement was a backlash against the Syrian migration crisis.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#288

Post by threatofrain »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #180
twblalock wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long term, we now have control of our future. Not really. Your future is just as bound up with the future of Europe as it was before. The only real difference is that instead of negotiating with the EU as a member, you will have to negotiate as an outsider who has considerably less leverage, and who has recently pissed everyone off. And when you negotiate with non-EU countries, it will be even worse for you. As a m…

Regaining control was always about more than economic control. If you're in the EU, I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect, people in the pocket of big business, who have set out to concentrate power in the hands of a small selected group. I've heard some EU apologists claim that they don't believe in democracy, but some of us still do.

I don't think leaving the EU is going to change a pattern of extreme concentration of power and money toward elites, and a few mega-corps dominating every single market, nor the tight relationship between megacorps, elites, and government that is present everywhere to strong effect.

That is a global trend for every major nation, and the factors behind a pyramidal society are not obviously being negotiated with in any meaningful way by the UK, Americans, or the Chinese. This is simply the structural propensity of an economic and political game where strength begets strength.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#289

Post by TillE »

dragonwriter wrote: post #88
mioelnir wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless of course UK retains the free market with EU. Why would they?

> Why would they? Its not uncommon to support free markets without free movement of people; outside of the relationships within the EU, its fairly normal for trade agreements. Corporate interests in both sides benefit from such arrangements compared to their absence, so there might well be powerful interests on both the European and UK sides pushing for that as part of the exit agreement. (OTOH, some -- though probab…

> Its not uncommon to support free markets without free movement of people

There's absolutely no chance of this happening with the UK and the EU. Free movement is even part of the EFTA. And anxiety about the stability of the EU will be much stronger than any neoliberal impulse that would allow the UK to carve out an unprecedented extra special deal for themselves.

My money's on Article 50 never being invoked, and a second referendum on a slightly better deal with the EU probably next year. So the UK will still have to endure an awful limbo state of uncertainty for a while, but they won't actually walk off the cliff.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#290

Post by TillE »

alkonaut wrote: post #140
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds very close to "Brexit supporters are racist." There seems to be a growing trend of people labeling anything they don't like with some -ist to shut down discussion.

Polls strongly suggest that the referendum was about immigration. I'm sure some of that has to do with racism, but a lot is probably just plain old isolationism and xenophobia. The working class of the UK have been screwed since forever, and it's remarkable that no party is able to represent them. Real wage growth stagnated in the early 2000's even though GDP/Capita kept rising (much like in the US). I find it amazin…

The distinction between racism and xenophobia is a very fine one. It's a Venn diagram with a huge amount of overlap.
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