Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit • Hacker News Board

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#271

Post by yardie » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:48 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #117

jacalata wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an even faster growing trend of people who campaign on really explicit "stop immigration, prevent foreigners from ruining our culture" platforms turning around and saying 'how dare you call me racist!'

Do people call Japan's immigration policy racist? Or do people not bemoan China controlling Tibet because, among other things, Tibet'd lose their cultural identity (this is separate from the valid argument about annexation and human rights issues). What about Bhutan, should we propose they go full globalization and either take on western culture, or Japanese or Korean culture? Fundamentally countries have a right to…

Do people call Japan's immigration policy racist? No because it applies to everyone equally. They call it xenophobic because that is exactly what it is.

In the US we actually had a racist immigration policy, the Chinese Exclusion Act [0] because it was actually applied to a single race created by actual racists. Do you see the difference?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#272

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:48 AM UTC

davorb wrote: post #207

rayiner wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an EU Parliament, and it can make binding law. So it's pretty disingenuous to make it seem like the UN or WTO.

The European Parliment doesn't have the power to propose new laws.

[deleted]

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#273

Post by rdtsc » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:55 AM UTC

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #241

moultano wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't self-interest enough of an explanation? Mass-immigration is unlikely to be a short term benefit to the host country, particularly to low skill workers in that country. Why should they oppose their own self interest? (I'm personally a very pro-immigration American, so I'm talking about this to understand the debate not to advance any particular objective.)

Self-interest is a valid explanation. And the question you pose is a very valid statement. I am sure that immigration poses problems when it is at the scale of modern society. Not everyone shares the same values and beliefs but the optimist in me is the of the thinking that humanity is no longer the tribal, "us vs them", neanderthal who only sticks to persons who visually look like them. The United States of America…

> What they don't see is that they are competing with those people not because those people are different, but because the people on top have figured out how to take everything and not share.

It is not either or. Why are there all of the sudden a lot of "different" people around, hmm strange? Is that correlated with wealth redistribution? Is there a causal relationship, or are they completely orthogonal phenomena that those who are wealthy just use to distract the masses?

I agree with wealth disparity, but I am hesitant to buy the "racism" slant here (which I think I detect. i.e. people who don't want immigrant just hate people with a different skin).

Countries and cultures still exist. Scots are different than Englishmen. They almost voted to leave as well. We don't and probably will never live as a one universal, global, happy country, all citizens of the earth, singing peace songs together, dreaming of exploring space and so on. Now, I wish it was that. Sort of a world wide cataclim or aliens invading, I don't see that happening. People have been and will be tribal. It is a pretty well ingrained instict. And people will want to preserve their tribe's identity, culture, language and so on. Perhaps many see immigrants eroding that. That doesn't have to be tied to skin color. Painting it as racism discredits and that make your argument a bit too superficial.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#274

Post by tokensimian » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:56 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #265

groby_b wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you believe that if the UK leaves the EU, France and Germany will go to war? If not, I don't see how "created to prevent another world war" is relevant. Directly? No. Trade war between EU and Britain? Might happen. And if the EU doesn't take fairly drastic action to, it will fray further, essentially destabilizing Europe. No war will come from that, either. Not yet. But if the EU were to crumble, it's a good bet…

And no, it's not "Don't leave me or I'll hurt you". It's "we had a contract, you broke it, that means I don't need to uphold my end of it either". That's generally how this whole treaty business works. It's right in the contract that member states have the freedom to leave. So tl;dr; Britain should stay in the EU because #remain folks want to start a trade war with them to punish them for leaving? And that maybe this…

Sorry to jump in uninvited... but that's what HN is.

I think you're mischaracterizing the situation.

Perspective 1: UK is breaking up with the EU, not vice-versa.

P2: EU gets some adv/dis-advantages by including UK specifically P3: UK had some advantages/disadvantages from being part of EU P4: EU has incentive outside of British sitch to stay unified

My (american) perspective is that Britain should stay in the EU because while their direct adv to leave may outweigh direct disadv to stay, they are subject to P4, which is to make an example of someone who leaves.

Exclude your judgement of right, wrong, and what should be. Look simply at leverage.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#275

Post by tokensimian » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:58 AM UTC

XJOKOLAT wrote: post #179

yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU will make the UK pay a price for Brexit, and rightly so, otherwise all member states would leave and still enjoy the free movement of goods and people. You make the EU sound like an abusive spouse. "Don't leave me or I'll hurt you!" Do you believe that if the UK leaves the EU, France and Germany will go to war? If not, I don't see how "created to prevent another world war" is relevant.

No one expects these things. And I can't see it for a few years. But ... if the EU members starts falling like domino's, Europe will look very different in a few years time. Tensions with Russia (Ukraine?), the rise of regional independent movements (Catalan/Spain), the continued rise of the far right, reactions against increased terrorism, etc. Anything can become a touch point. And it all seems far-fetched until it…

Exactly. It's leverage, not abuse. What's the difference? Eye of the beholder.

Regardless of judgement, you have to look at leverage. That's what really matters in terms of outcomes.

I believe it's important for individuals to build character based on morals (ie judge leverage for abuse), but that's like suggesting thermodynamics law 2 just isn't very nice.

You're right: it sucks. But wishing it were otherwise is not super relevant.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#276

Post by tokensimian » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:02 AM UTC

thevardanian wrote: post #244

Daishiman wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was one of the larger economies; as it will now be an isolated island with no automatic access to the European market, it's value will be lost to a lot of businesses.

Well yes, and no. It now depends all on how the trade deals are negotiated. What I'm arguing is that the UK has plenty of bargaining chips, and can trade elsewhere if it doesn't feel like it's getting a fair deal in the EU.

Except previously it was negotiating with a number of smaller entities.

Now it will be negotiating with a block of them. The UK just willingly decreased their leverage so they had free will.

Thank you, from all of America. You managed to be completely embarrasing in your 2016 election cycle, before we are really able to be shockingly shameful in front of you.

Brits are polite to the end.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#277

Post by rdtsc » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #48

This may mean the breakup of the United Kingdom, too. Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe, and may choose to leave the UK, leaving Britain and Wales as the UK.[1] As a practical matter, it will become harder to do business into the EU from Britain. Visiting the EU from Britain may require a visa, and visiting Britain from the EU almost certainly will. This is really about Keeping Britain White…

> This is really about Keeping Britain White.

Did anyone criticize and throw stones at Scotland for voting wanted to not be part of UK anymore. Everyone looked at that and said "how cute". If Britain does it, oh they are racist, they hate dark skin colors clearly.

I just don't buy it.

I can see Britain wanting to keep its cultural and national identity. It happens that they want to restrict immigration and most immigrants happen to have darker skin. I bet you if immigrant were Romanians or Albanians, who came in organized crim rings, engaged in ATM card theft and which is rampant. They would have as big of a problem with that. I don't skin color is a huge issue, it is rather used to ridicule the people who voted the way they did and to subtly call them racists as an act of revenge.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#278

Post by tokensimian » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #190

vonnik wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence is a mirage, as is control. No individual nor country in the world is independent. We are all interdependent on one another, and ever more so as the movement of data, goods and people accelerates. The EU is a framework is facilitate that interdependence, and while it has many faults, it was created to prevent another world war and in that it has succeeded. Great Britain's future is very dependent on the…

>The EU will make the UK pay a price for Brexit. Last time I checked membership in the EU is voluntary. Why should there be punishment?

It's not necessarily punitive (although it could be), but they will unlikely receive similar negotiating advantages as they did before.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#279

Post by mc32 » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:04 AM UTC

yardie wrote: post #271

mc32 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people call Japan's immigration policy racist? Or do people not bemoan China controlling Tibet because, among other things, Tibet'd lose their cultural identity (this is separate from the valid argument about annexation and human rights issues). What about Bhutan, should we propose they go full globalization and either take on western culture, or Japanese or Korean culture? Fundamentally countries have a right to…

Do people call Japan's immigration policy racist? No because it applies to everyone equally. They call it xenophobic because that is exactly what it is. In the US we actually had a racist immigration policy, the Chinese Exclusion Act [0] because it was actually applied to a single race created by actual racists. Do you see the difference? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

Not sure why you're stating things about the US when we're talking about the UK and their policies --which apply to Europeans as well as people from other countries.

And yes, the Chinese exclusion act was by definition racist... But no one in any major western country is talking about excluding one race or even nationality of people outright (Trump talks about "pausing" immigration from conflict zones).

People do speak about controlling their legal immigration and deterring illegal/undocumented/etc. immigration (but pretty much all countries do have visa requirements (or inter country-region agreements) --even those who mainly export workers.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#280

Post by yabatopia » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 2:10 AM UTC

thevardanian wrote: post #244

Daishiman wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was one of the larger economies; as it will now be an isolated island with no automatic access to the European market, it's value will be lost to a lot of businesses.

Well yes, and no. It now depends all on how the trade deals are negotiated. What I'm arguing is that the UK has plenty of bargaining chips, and can trade elsewhere if it doesn't feel like it's getting a fair deal in the EU.

Trade with whom? There aren't that many regions the world with a similar per capita income like the EU. The UK already trades extensively with the US and Canada, so that's an unlikely growth engine. Granted, the UK is a large economy, and may have some bargaining chips, but it needs the EU more than vice versa.