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Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

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Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#191

Post by thebokehwokeh2 »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #160
cromwellian wrote: post #128

Right now, among all industrialized economies, there is a crisis happening as deindustrialization is taking place. This has fundamentally altered the assumptions of steady and stable middle class economic growth that was an anomaly mostly between the 1940s-1970s. As a result, people are mad "at the system", what what we're seeing is political movements redirecting public anger at whatever target they wish. In the US,…

Why can't a person be opposed to mass immigration even if it won't bring economic benefits? I'm not in UK frankly, but I'm definitely ready to sacrifice part of my income if that would curb mass immigration. Unfortunately, nobody ever proposed so.

Ok. I'll bite on this one. Why are you opposed to mass immigration?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#192

Post by programLyrique »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #180
twblalock wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Long term, we now have control of our future. Not really. Your future is just as bound up with the future of Europe as it was before. The only real difference is that instead of negotiating with the EU as a member, you will have to negotiate as an outsider who has considerably less leverage, and who has recently pissed everyone off. And when you negotiate with non-EU countries, it will be even worse for you. As a m…

Regaining control was always about more than economic control. If you're in the EU, I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect, people in the pocket of big business, who have set out to concentrate power in the hands of a small selected group. I've heard some EU apologists claim that they don't believe in democracy, but some of us still do.

I have the impression that I elected the MPEs, and that I have chosen my ministers and my head of state, and as such, the councils of ministers and heads of state that are the real rulers of Europe, yes, the nations! As the European commission, it's a civil service as there is in all the European countries.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#193

Post by roel_v »

BuildTheRobots wrote: post #136
return0 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not like that, without a common language and currency, EU presence in the UK is not much more than a common set of certain standards.

Standards like Human Rights, which is something the UK has already expressed an interest in removing.

Nothing to do with EU, Councel pf Europe != European Councel.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#194

Post by ZenoArrow »

twblalock wrote: post #184
ZenoArrow wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regaining control was always about more than economic control. If you're in the EU, I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect, people in the pocket of big business, who have set out to concentrate power in the hands of a small selected group. I've heard some EU apologists claim that they don't believe in democracy, but some of us still do.

> I hope you realise that you're currently being ruled by people you didn't elect Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues. > people in the pocket of b…

> "Everyone in the EU is ruled by their own elected government. The unelected bureaucrats in Brussels don't rule anybody. Their ability to make decisions for member states is limited by treaties. In any case, the UK was significantly more independent than other EU states in terms of currency and economic issues."

The agenda of the EU is controlled by the EU Commission, as they're the only group that can propose laws. The EU Commissioners are not democratically elected, and only serve the interests of the EU as a single block. The laws they propose do have to get passed elected officials, but the Commission is free to keep passing through similar laws until they get passed, which is similar to how they pushed through the rejected European Constitution as the Lisbon Treaty, despite the contents being similar.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Consti...

> "Ah, conspiracy theories."

Ah, casual dismissal. If you want to see if there's any substance behind what I say, watch this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMuUEd6w54E

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#195

Post by guard-of-terra »

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #191
guard-of-terra wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't a person be opposed to mass immigration even if it won't bring economic benefits? I'm not in UK frankly, but I'm definitely ready to sacrifice part of my income if that would curb mass immigration. Unfortunately, nobody ever proposed so.

Ok. I'll bite on this one. Why are you opposed to mass immigration?

First of all, nobody asked me. I feel excluded from decisions on this policy and you can see how this amplifies my hostility to it.

Because even if we have a debate on mass immigration and I lose every argument, I'm still entitled to have my vote weighted. Is it my country or whose it is?

By default I don't owe people of other countries anything. It's our common right to let them in; but it's also our common right to kindly ask them to stay outside.

That's the basic outline, and I'll try and explain my unique reservations in another comment.

UPD to the sibling comment:

It's not that I have any obligations to not be a racist.

Maybe I am. Maybe I am not. Maybe I'm racist on even days and not racist on odd.

I my country I have rights to be whatever pleases me.

On other hand, if you want me to not be a racist, or at least not act as racist, you have to tell me what's in it for me.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#196

Post by riffraff »

ommunist wrote: post #168
ori_b wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is not part of the EU. Why do you think that the UK have more freedom in this case?

Switzerland already bent its traditional legislation to comply with new EU ruling about banks secrets snd reporting. The UK banking just got its chance.

Switzerland did that because the alternative was, concretely, losing the ability to keep foreign customers, so they chose the lesser evil. Why do you think it would be different for the UK?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#197

Post by lkrubner »

thebokehwokeh2 wrote: post #191
guard-of-terra wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't a person be opposed to mass immigration even if it won't bring economic benefits? I'm not in UK frankly, but I'm definitely ready to sacrifice part of my income if that would curb mass immigration. Unfortunately, nobody ever proposed so.

Ok. I'll bite on this one. Why are you opposed to mass immigration?

I admire your willingness to be open minded and ask the question, but I've asked the question in the past, and I've never gotten a straight answer. Instead I get some pat pre-package talking points, and if I dig deeper I get a confusion of ideas. And that's because the people opposed to immigration tend to be motivated by racism, but they don't want to say that, so they every other imaginable thing. It's simply impossible to have an honest conversation with someone, if they aren't willing to be honest about why they favor a particular policy.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#198

Post by sangnoir »

volatilitish wrote: post #172
dragonwriter wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU has been extremely ineffective at negotiating trade deals between the 28 EU countries, and non EU countries. Exactly, which casts strong doubts on the this claim from your earlier post: "We will negotiate a trade deal with the EU as a whole." Because, you know, that is a trade deal between the 27 remaining EU countries and a non-(or soon to be non-)EU country, the exact thing you say that the EU isn't succes…

We buy more from the EU than we sell. We are the EUs biggest market. We buy 1,000,000 cars from Germany. It is massively in the EU's interests to do a deal with us quickly.

Politics is not always rational. It is also in the interest of the survival of the EU to deal with the UK in a heavy-handed manner. If a precedent is set that shows leaving the union is all upsides with no downsides, why would other countries remain? IMO, France has the greatest risk of leaving next, and without France, the whole EU might collapse. The kid gloves are definitely going to come off in the negotiations: I have an inkling that's why the 'Leave' campaign is delaying the invocation of article 50.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#199

Post by rwhitman »

cromwellian wrote: post #128

Right now, among all industrialized economies, there is a crisis happening as deindustrialization is taking place. This has fundamentally altered the assumptions of steady and stable middle class economic growth that was an anomaly mostly between the 1940s-1970s. As a result, people are mad "at the system", what what we're seeing is political movements redirecting public anger at whatever target they wish. In the US,…

I think this is a portion of what's going on. I'll prefix by saying I'm no expert in history or political science but I believe through the larger lens of history, the big picture is that the West is undergoing an acceleration of empire collapse in several places.

Overall, the lessons of history teach that geographically large, wealthy, socially advanced empires don't actually survive all that long on average. They are complex systems with lots of moving parts, and various unexpected stressors can break essential components in unexpected ways. Major changes to the labor force, migration and productivity are very frequently the type of stressor that breaks empire systems.

The EU is a form of empire, that had many flaws from it's inception. The British Empire we believed had already fallen and was on the mend after WWII, had maybe found it's place in the EU, but the reality is looking like it still had further left to go to hit rock bottom. (If we look at the map of the vote it resembles Britain circa 1700, before the rise of British colonialism.)

Likewise, in the USA the American empire has hit the peak of it's capacity for expansion and economic dominance and is starting to get a taste of what the cracks in empire look like. This truly massive scale democratic republic is a real achievement but it's unclear what happens in a system like this at this scale. We may have simply exhausted the limits of a republic to project power, expand wealth and still maintain political harmony at home. The population's awakening to these changes, coupled with feeling the stress of labor shifts, is manifesting in political upheaval.

Anyhow I'm no expert in history or government but I don't believe it's out of the question to assume this is what it feels like to be embarking into the darker bits of history. Personally, I'm accepting that Asia will become the dominant economic driver for the remainder of my life and plan on embracing that from here out

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#200

Post by throwawaysocks »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #176
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real numbers here. http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/how-would-key-export-sec... Some key UK export sectors - especially finance - have a very low probability of being able to carry on as normal. The German car industry accounts for around 3% of GDP. Sales to the UK are less than 1% of German GDP. The UK financial industry accounts for around 10% of GDP. Sales to the EU are around 4% of UK GDP. As a rough guess est…

1% of GDP tied to a single trading partner and a single industry is a pretty big deal. Likewise, 4% of GDP in finance commerce to Germany is a big deal. Seems like good evidence that the parties will want to ensure trading continues mostly the same as it has been. A big question is whether the rest of the EU would be able to block such arrangements. I don't think they will either want to or be able to.

But the stickiness of geography for finance and autos are very different. Replicating a segment of London's financial sector in Frankfurt is easier than replicating BMW/VW to UK.
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