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Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

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Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#81

Post by djschnei »

unholythree wrote: post #61
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the people of England care what globalism "demands"?

Hear, hear! Late last night I read a LA times Op-Ed ( http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-klaas-dirsus-leav... ) That presupposes globalization is good. Lists problems they allege only it can fix, and ignores globalization role in those very problems. Additionally they never specify the recipient of globalization's "unprecedented wealth". Why should it motivate the average UK voter if they don't profit?

I'm not a globalist! I promise! My comment was snarky haha.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#82

Post by querulous »

raverbashing wrote: post #3

There's some talk that immigration from the Commonwealth will be facilitated. I don't buy it. It's already difficult to find talent from the block, and several people come to Europe with a visa Yeah, I think the UK shot themselves in the foot with this

no one in the commonwealth is going to move to the uk to make half what they can make in canada

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#83

Post by mioelnir »

genzoman wrote: post #31
Scirra_Tom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conglomeration of power is very useful in some situations. For example, global environmental problems. Have one conglomerate force everyone to do better. If each country acted independently, each country is incentivised to not think about the bigger picture and act in their own short term interests. This was my main reason for voting in.

I do not live in Europe, but this line struck me: "force everyone to do better". Which I interpret as you can't make decisions on your own, big daddy government must make those decisions for you.

The EU forces a minimum standard for you have to implement, correct. Like not pumping unfiltered sewage into a freshwater reservoir, giving a damn about air pollution, non-toxic children's toys etc.

These are not made-up examples.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#84

Post by mioelnir »

zeveb wrote: post #76
ubernostrum wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help wondering if there's an effect here like the one that produces anti-vaccination attitudes. We're running out of people who have direct experience of a world before routine vaccination for childhood illnesses, and so the downside of taking the anti-vaccine stance simply isn't apparent to people until their own children die of preventable illness, at which point it's too late to help. Similarly, I wonder i…

> when the UK joined the European common market The problem is that the EU should have remained the Common Market, instead of growing into a largely unaccountable, largely undemocratic, largely technocratic, ungainly nightmare. I think that a United States of Europe is inevitable, and even a good idea, but it should have been done slowly, gradually and with respect for the differing peoples of Britain and the Contine…

> for the differing peoples of Britain and the Continent

So you on the islands are special but we monkeys on the continent are all the same? The UK has been half-in/half-out of the EU for the last 40 years, always wanting extra on all the benefits and never taking a downside in return.

I'm glad you've finally made up your mind, as one way or the other this shitshow will finally end.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#85

Post by dragonwriter »

zeveb wrote: post #76
ubernostrum wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help wondering if there's an effect here like the one that produces anti-vaccination attitudes. We're running out of people who have direct experience of a world before routine vaccination for childhood illnesses, and so the downside of taking the anti-vaccine stance simply isn't apparent to people until their own children die of preventable illness, at which point it's too late to help. Similarly, I wonder i…

> when the UK joined the European common market The problem is that the EU should have remained the Common Market, instead of growing into a largely unaccountable, largely undemocratic, largely technocratic, ungainly nightmare. I think that a United States of Europe is inevitable, and even a good idea, but it should have been done slowly, gradually and with respect for the differing peoples of Britain and the Contine…

> I think that a United States of Europe is inevitable, and even a good idea, but it should have been done slowly, gradually and with respect for the differing peoples of Britain and the Continent.

It has been done slowly and gradually, and Britain for a long time has been pretty clear that they don't want to go in that direction at all.

> Instead, what took about 150 year for America was rammed through in about 30.

Which 150 year period in US history are you comparing to which 30 year period in EU history? Because the US went from winning the war for independence from England to integration into a single national government with a common military, a prohibition on the members making any international agreements (or agreements between each other) without approval from the central authority in less than 10 years. The progress of the european integration has been substantially slower, not faster.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#86

Post by mioelnir »

gambiting wrote: post #15
volatilitish wrote: post #2

As a brit, it's strange to see how it's being spun here. The majority of people voted to leave the EU and to regain independence. There will be a little volatility until some facts about how that divorce happens, emerge. Long term, we now have control of our future. In terms of startups though, the EU is there to serve big businesses and powerful establishment. It's there to hinder startups and small businesses. If y…

I run a small company trading between UK and two other EU countries. This is a disaster - I remember back when you had to pay import duties in countries that haven't joined the EU yet, and basically with razor thin margins, the added cost of bureaucracy would collapse the company now. I'm already considering switching suppliers from UK to Germany, which of course means that UK economy will have less money - and I'm s…

> Unless of course UK retains the free market with EU.

Why would they?

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#87

Post by mjevans »

evgen wrote: post #67
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really is a key point. The UK contributed a net of something like 140m pounds a week or so to the EU, that's about 7b pounds on a 1.8 trillion pound economy, or a small (0.3%) fraction or so of the GDP. For that they got 10% or so of the votes in all European affairs, and access to a market (50% of UK exports are to the EU) under favourable trade agreements, which are easily worth 0.3% of GDP in and of itself. N…

I think you have fundementally mixed things up here. The UK is (was) the second-largest economy in the EU. If you want to talk about percentage contribution to the EU budget the UK was a net contributor of 8.5 billion pounds (after "rebate") more than it received from that same EU budget that totals around 125 billion pounds. So they put in about 7% of the budget and get about 10% of the votes. Definitely a deal that…

I'll take your word on those numbers as they sound reasonable.

However I do believe you've neglected the other points of the post which were about the value of access to the European market place and that 10% say in how said market is run. Those are costs / benefits which are not so easily counted before the painful divorce is complete.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#88

Post by dragonwriter »

mioelnir wrote: post #86
gambiting wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run a small company trading between UK and two other EU countries. This is a disaster - I remember back when you had to pay import duties in countries that haven't joined the EU yet, and basically with razor thin margins, the added cost of bureaucracy would collapse the company now. I'm already considering switching suppliers from UK to Germany, which of course means that UK economy will have less money - and I'm s…

> Unless of course UK retains the free market with EU. Why would they?

> Why would they?

Its not uncommon to support free markets without free movement of people; outside of the relationships within the EU, its fairly normal for trade agreements.

Corporate interests in both sides benefit from such arrangements compared to their absence, so there might well be powerful interests on both the European and UK sides pushing for that as part of the exit agreement.

(OTOH, some -- though probably not all -- of the "Leave" constituency is probably anti-free-trade, so at least some of that constituency would probably oppose the arrangement. Perhaps not enough to stop it, though.)

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#89

Post by anexprogrammer »

masklinn wrote: post #68
Animats wrote: post #48

This may mean the breakup of the United Kingdom, too. Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe, and may choose to leave the UK, leaving Britain and Wales as the UK.[1] As a practical matter, it will become harder to do business into the EU from Britain. Visiting the EU from Britain may require a visa, and visiting Britain from the EU almost certainly will. This is really about Keeping Britain White…

> Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe NI is in a real bad situation though, they mostly want to stay in the EU but I don't think they can survive as an independent country[0], so they're stuck between their Unionist majority / Out minority on one side and the In majority / Nationalist minority on the other. Historical polls put the Union majority as comparable to the In one but United Ireland…

I heard on the news earlier that already large numbers have sought Eire citizenship by applying for an Irish (hence EU) passport. (All northern Ireland citizens are entitled to dual nationality). So it may end up helping the United Ireland opinion by proxy if large numbers continue to seek Irish passports.

Re: Doom, Gloom and Unease: London's Tech Scene Reacts to Brexit

#90

Post by [deleted] »

mattmanser wrote: post #72
Animats wrote: post #48

This may mean the breakup of the United Kingdom, too. Scotland and Northern Ireland mostly want to stay in Europe, and may choose to leave the UK, leaving Britain and Wales as the UK.[1] As a practical matter, it will become harder to do business into the EU from Britain. Visiting the EU from Britain may require a visa, and visiting Britain from the EU almost certainly will. This is really about Keeping Britain White…

Half the people in the UK aren't racists and it doesn't make you look good claiming they are. It was actually part of the problem and why leave won, no-one listened to their legitimate concerns and just kept sidelining a large chunk of the electorate by calling them racists. For most people it's not about racism and it's certainly not about colour (the most recent mass-migration from the EU are white anyway!). Citing…

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