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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#771

Post by Retric »

nickik wrote: post #731
banach wrote: post #681

On the contrary, historical perspective is essential in understanding the issues that the EU is going through currently. If the German leadership took a good look in the mirror, it would see that it is subjecting Greece to a replica of the Treaty of Versaille and, as a result, should expect similar consequences. The PR outfall of that debacle is probably what pushed the Brits to vote for exit.

Their is a lot wrong with what you say. Clearly you are not up with current historical studies on the 'Treaty of Versaille'. The treaty was actually not particularly hard or in any way impossible to mean by Germany. If Germany had better leadership they could easily have moved passed it and be the most wealthy nation again. What they are doing to Greece is actually much worse then Versaille. It has to do with the iss…

Greece did not do meaningful Austerity, they let their debt continue to snowball and continued to spend more than they where taxing.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/275335/government-revenue...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#772

Post by _ph_ »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #651
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

Agreed. As an aside, for me this is a sterling example of the dangers of "direct democracy", that many see as the solution of all evils that plague the political process. The majority of UK lawmakers (democratically elected by the same people that voted the referendum) were in favor of staying in the Union: even a large number with conservative and traditionalist background (including the PM). Yet the future of the U…

I agree. At minimum, these kind of decisions should require 50% of all eligible voters to to agree, not only 50% of those who cast their votes, or alternatively 2/3rds of the cast votes. Also, this kind of decision could require some kind of multi part vote. I wonder, how the results were, if they had to cast a vote again in a few days.

Here in Germany, we have a strict representative democracy. But we have regional elections often enough, that the government gets to feel, if voters no longer agree with it. So it is a balance between short term popularity a long term considerations.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#774

Post by ino »

optforfon wrote: post #630
dandare wrote: post #439

To understand how irrational the voters decision is, consider this story: here in Czech Republic, many people now "oppose the dictate of the EU" because as a part of consumer protection scheme introduced by EU Czechia's favourite margarine brand had to change it's name from butter to margarine. Only butter products can be labeled butter now and this has become a fuel in the increase of eurosceptics. Fubar.

That being said.. the fact that there are people in Brussels that probably spend hundreds if not thousands of man-hours figuring out what is butter and is not kinda illustrates what people don't like about the EU

I like having those regulations and the safety they provide, even if in many cases they might be too cautious. I don't trust companies, specially multinationals, to care for the consumers, their workers and the environment.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#775

Post by mmsimanga »

As an observer out here in Africa, I understand why the Brits may be fed up with the way immigration is being handled. The citizens of Europe are being told to be welcoming. However, there is no solution in sight in the home countries of the immigrants. When are all the wars in the Middle-East going to end? When are the African dictators holding their countries to ransom going to be replaced by good governments?

I purposely did not go into reasons why the said regions are unstable. At the end of the day the wars and governance issues need to be sorted out to stem the flow of immigrants. I don't think anyone has the answer. The solution is certainly not for the whole world to migrate to the "developed" countries.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#776

Post by johnminter »

MichaelGG wrote: post #419
slg wrote: post #198

I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.

I think it's bizarre that a wakeup call is needed. From the moment I saw Trump talk the first time, I thought "wow, he's going to blast things to bits". A lot of folks think the USG doesn't accomplish things, that politicians are full of nonsense, that the media/news is junk. Simply that Trump is an outsider that's basically an independent should be enough for people to see he's going to win big. The fact that enough…

I think you are on the right track when you compare the Brexit surprise to the Trump phenomenon. There are many of us who view the main difference between the Democratic and Republican establishment as only the particular special interest, large donors they serve. George Bush was many things, but a fiscal conservative is NOT one. He was the one who pushed through Medicare Part D which contributed greatly to our unfunded liabilities. Every president since Johnson has raided the Social Security Trust Fund to help hide our debt. President Obama has presided over the doubling of our national debt, to over $20T. He had a lot of help from both sides of the aisle.

Many of us here realize that this exponential growth in national debt supported by printing unbacked fiat currency cannot continue. We will be in especially deep trouble if other nations decide not continue to use the US dollar as the reserve currency. We cannot continue to outspend on defense the next 11 or 12 nations combined. We cannot solve every crisis in the world.

We do not have a perfect choice for president. We never do. We do know that Mrs. Clinton is another one who sees more government intervention as the solution to every problem. She was not very effective as Secretary of State and I am surprised she has not been indicted for compromising national security with her private email server. Even if they had put up Sen. Sanders, his own wife's experience (shutting down the college she presided over because it was economically unsustainable, getting a nice severance package, leaving the students with debt...) shows that his plan is unworkable. At least Mr. Trump realizes that not every expenditure is possible or prudent. He seems to understand the concept of 'vital national interests' - that we must get our own house in order before we can continue to help the greater global community.

Those of us who say this are often publicly vilified. We do not seem to be able to have a peaceful, rational exchange of ideas. So people will keep their mouth shut and go cast their ballot in the privacy of the voting booth, exercising their fundamental human right guaranteed by under a constitutional republic. Gee, it sounds a lot like what the voters in the UK just did.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#777

Post by codecamper »

datamoshr wrote: post #679
codecamper wrote: post #542

Hmm... What happens to the union with Ireland then? Will it still be possible to travel from Ireland to the UK without showing documents? If not... then will there be a new fence across Ireland (between north and south)?

Ireland and England have something called the Common Travel Area ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area ) which is unrelated to the EU. Basically shouldn't be affected really. Only destabilizing thing that comes to mind would be the Scotland + N. Ireland leaving the UK might make them rethink this.

You are right.. I was thinking EU relating to visa requirements, but that is Schengen in much of the EU, including Ireland.

It seems there will be no change in regard to visas.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#778

Post by PythonicAlpha »

lazyjones wrote: post #765
PythonicAlpha wrote: post #597

That is a clear vote against a Europe that is not about democracy or peace, but solely about trade regulations and the interests of big corporations. The people in Europe see, how many regulations just come from Brussels to be just acknowledged by their own parliaments and the democratic process is just circumvented. They see, how much is just for the benefit of big corporations and not for their benefit. In Germany,…

> *That is a clear vote against a Europe that is not about democracy or peace, but solely about trade regulations and the interests of big corporations. Agreed - but I don't believe it will affect the influence of corporations on Brits very much. They have a stranglehold on the UK government just as much as on the EU and a smaller entity is probably easier to influence. The Brexit would be good for the EU, at least f…

You are right, that the Brexit does not help the British. But that is the problem with this voting, it is dominated by illogical feelings. The problem is also not the EU as such, but the governments of the EU countries.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#779

Post by Clubber »

notacoward wrote: post #766

That's a very strange, and in some cases inaccurate, portrayal of history. * The British were not an external enemy. That would have been the French. For the most part, even the people leading the revolution were proud of being British subjects and would have liked to remain so, but could no longer tolerate the conditions being attached to that status. Our enemy was recognized to be our own cousins, not some external…

The French were the external enemy of the English and subsequently the loyalists in the US. At the time of the Revolutionary War, the French were instrumental in winning it by bombarding English ships en route to the US. At the time of the Revolutionary War, the English were the common enemy of the revolutionaries.

It wasn't cut and dry, there were many English loyalists in the colonies at the time of the war. After the US gained independence, most of them fled.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#780

Post by _ph_ »

madengr wrote: post #754
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The EU grants rights; I have read your charter. In the US, our rights are inalienable and not granted by government; big difference.

I am not a lawyer nor a native english speaker, but in both cases we have a central power which limits the powers of the constituting states. In the USA you have the constitution, in Europe its the treaty of Lisbon. And there is a high European court which is the counterpart to the US supreme court. So I am not sure what the fundamental difference is you are referring to.
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